WHAT the hell is going on? #2

[AlliedG]

immunity logic does have bugs

no bugs there

Are you saying that Immunity is now also immune to all  special effects in warheads e.g custom radiation? I see you have solved the EMP issue though although ability to affect aircraft (e.g. instant kill) and cyborg=yes infantry would be useful as well.

Also from a private PPM message

also in ra2 engine or whatever, eliteness always is displayed towards the player, e.g. i don't need to click the unit to see his or her veterancy unlike ts hence why the drop pod looks elite unless you have some coding to show the drop pod image is somehow elite (which would be pointless)

<private>

Evidence, that CnCVK can acknowledge mistakes ..

Perhaps it is just a language barrier issue .. i.e. we want to help but CnCVK can't understand what we are saying or thinks we have said something offensive and thus uses reactive language.

To CnCVK
Only advice I would give, is to try and reduce the number of revision releases, (so many ...) and if you change something to improve the code but is not changeable to modders e.g. I change something but not important, then to not mention it)

[Bobingabout]

yes, immunity does work on animations (if you add it to warhead Fire/Fire2), and NewRad.

I've read that VK has fixed it now, but i'll give some of my experiences anyway.

in RPCE i saw an small army of surviving conscripts walking across a LN newrad field, after i used a LNM on them

then in #0033, allied powerplants being immune to LN from my army of FTNK

then later on(when testing out my new fire immunities, with some new 0.4.3 units) a yuri refinary being immune to LN and Fire(sugesting these bugged immunities might be immune to all immunitytypes, not just a random 1) from my army of FTNK and FBTNK. (i eventually blew it up by placing my freeze tanks on the refinary bib, then blowing them up with my fireball tanks, because they have a deathweapon without the immunitytype logic.)

[Marshall]

If CnCVK has based the immunity logic on the existing Radiation immunity, then that would explain why there have been some issues with it - buildings are h/c immune to radiaition. Setting ImmuneToRad=no and giving Rad site warhead positive verses buildings will have no effect.

[blackheartstar]

Argh when I posted that #36 had not been released yet. Between #33 and him stating revisions dont add new features and such I didnt intentinaly misinform   but for that one thing he added he fixxed two bugs and that IS progress on both fronts. Not a problem. It was also an asked for feature.

Why are you so opposed to his nameing system? If he wants to call his next release RP 1.8 The New Age who is that hurting and what does it matter really? Anyone who comes here would easily beable to find that it is the newest version of the patch. His nameing/numbering scheme may not make sence but it doesnt matter and thus should not be an issue.

If some people are to busy to be bothered to keep up with RP progress thats there loss. Others with more patience will continue to use it and in the long run have mods that out function those who dropped it becouse he didnt do it there way. No matter how you look at it a new feature is one more feature than we had before. He cant very well just add a feature or fix a specific bug for everybody that threatens to or does quite using the patch. (and the bug filled patch argument is void as he is takeing them down. Maybe not in the order anybody likes but he is trying to fix them)

3rd weapon support you may have read he wanted to see how it went in ETS before trying it.

As for Votelist/Wishlist all of those things have been up for awhile, but they ARE things he is/has worked on. For the vote list all those mentioned includeing 3rd weapon brought up above are towards the top of the list. To me that says he has looked at the vote list. As for the wish list who knows. Saying its just random luck it might just be but saying he needs to look at it more closly when infact he is one way or the other doing things from it. They are not on the vote list so as long as some of them get acomplished its better than none. I would like to know these features that are useless in your eyes? Everybody will have different opinions I dont get the point of more multiplayer colors myself but OTHERS do and that IS the point.

Banshee and the rest of them at the ETS forum are alot more understanding and patiant with him than those of us here (even though they get him much less), and Banshee brings up the exact reason why there should be no closed testing.

[VK]

If CnCVK has based the immunity logic on the existing Radiation immunity,

PD, not me

Also from a private PPM message

who allow you to copy a part of my private message without my agreement

I cut it.

but CnCVK can't understand what we are saying

I understand you very well

Are you saying that Immunity is now also immune to all special effects in warheads e.g custom radiation?

No, I about EMP.

sugesting these bugged immunities might be immune to all immunitytypes, not just a random 1

operator new don't clear memory via zeros.
PD didn't know this....

[Renegade]

Banshee and the rest of them at the ETS forum are alot more understanding and patiant with him than those of us here (even though they get him much less), and Banshee brings up the exact reason why there should be no closed testing.

No. They kiss his ass, 'cause he's the first one to ever touch the TS .exe on a large scale. If he stops, they're fucked.
We did the same when pd joined two years ago. But by now, we know what's possible, and we, as opposed to the TS community, have experience with three different coders and can compare them.

What Banshee does isn't "understanding". It's protection. 'cause if he pisses off the only Assembly-coder the TS community has, an entire community will demand his corpse.

We had a working patch, and are unhappy with the direction it's taking. They are happy if there is a patch at all. So they're trying to do everything necessary to keep him working, while one might argue we're trying to do the exact opposite.

(Of course we don't want VK to stop working on RP...we'd just like him to change the way he does the work.)

[Marshall]

His nameing/numbering scheme may not make sence but it doesnt matter and thus should not be an issue.

It does matter for two reasons:
1. It confuses the hell out of people if there isn't a consistent, understandable version format.
2. Predictable version numbering is needed for software to check what version of something is installed. This is essential for the upcoming Launch Base. A program has no way of knowing whether "Celebration Edition" is higher or lower than "Second Edition" unless it is explicitly coded. That is why a numeric version is needed. RP-Gen allows CnCVK to show his naming convention as well as providing Launch Base with the numeric version.

[4StarGeneral]

You think you can do better?

Anyway, MOST of you guys just don't understand how hard it is to do this. He isn't a computer, he can't work on this 24/7 he needs to go do other things. And if Westwood actually had a better system this would be easier. But they don't.
Once you get stuff to work the rest of Westwood's coding either gets in the way or corrupts it or something. Believe me I've tried. So good job VK. And if the rest of you don't like, who don't understand this, too bad. The more features you add, the more bugs come with it. Thats what happens. WW has weird coding I can't express it enough. Maybe if he was paid to do it, he COULD do it longer and better.

So unless you can do a better job, DON'T ATTACK HIS WORK SO HARSHLY!
- Out -

[Banshee]

terribly bug-ridden ETS

no bug reports, and test version... funny

No bug reports? There were 3 done one hour after the release. And you've replied to their topics there.

What Banshee does isn't "understanding". It's protection. 'cause if he pisses off the only Assembly-coder the TS community has, an entire community will demand his corpse.

No, you are wrong here, Ren. I'm a programmer as well and I know how boring is to waste years bug testing programs and trying to fix them, specially with something as complex as Yuri's Revenge and, even more when your code is pure assembly (in short, a mess). However, bug fixing is needed, but he shouldn't be the only one to hunt bugs.

SHP Builder, VXLSE III and other OS Tools are also bug infested tools, but they look somewhat stable. I do some basic tests to wipe the most obvious bugs, but there are kind of bugs that doesn't even get close to my imagination. Anyway, I take more time testing my tools than he does with RP, this is why the progress of these tools is slower in terms of new features, but they still look more stable than RP.

Anyway, this is how I work. He works in a different way and I respect that, even if I don't like this kind of thing either. But I know that if I get bitching like a freak, it won't help him. If I report bugs for him, I'm sure he'll be interested to take more time to make RP stable than adding things that won't work as it should. Assembly is a hard stuff. Anyway, I don't need to protect him, honestly. PaD is also a great assembly coder and even I know how assembly work and for me, hacking the TS engine like CnCVK does would be a matter of few weeks, but I prefer doing other things.

[Renegade]

[...]
So unless you can do a better job, DON'T ATTACK HIS WORK SO HARSHLY!

I'm not going to say VK's work is bad, but:
Just because we can't do better doesn't mean VK's work is good.

@Banshee:
I was not talking about understanding in the sense of knowing how more code is always more bugged. We all know that. And be it only hunting down a single godforsaken IE through a thousand lines of .ini code. What I was referring to are practices like the one shown in 4StarGeneral's post quite well - absolute support no matter the problems, decisions or number of people voicing concerns.

For example: After we were all getting pushy (and maybe a little asshole-ly at times), he directly asked "And what is your ideas?". I responded with a simple, reasonable, elaborate 10-point-plan that'd not only improve the experience for us, but help him get things organized and people off his back as well.
His reaction?
In that same thread, none. Despite the fact that he posted three more posts. I directly responded with ideas he requested, and he ignored me. He later replied in a total different thread (when I called him on it) to a few minor, partial sentences, but still ignored the thing as a whole.

Now, don't get me wrong - I'm not trying to play the "omg I don't get enough attention!!!!" whiny teenager here, what I'm pointing at is that despite such obviously inconsistent behavior, despite this obvious unwillingness to change anything (even securing the status quo through bullshit "rules" now), disregarding any criticism or point made by the community, people like 4StarGeneral still blindly follow him crying "four legs good, two leg---" err, "as long as you can't do better, shut up". It is that touchy, feely, fanatic, protective, pseudo-"understanding" behavior I was talking about.

Yes, I know he didn't mean to code the bugs. Yes, I do realize we should be grateful for what he does. And yes, I do realize I can't do better. But all of that doesn't change the fact that his way of working lead to a state were pd himself returned and asked "WHAT the hell is going on?".

I don't have anything against VK, personally. In terms of hosting, general interaction, etc. he was always reasonable, friendly, and intellectually understanding. But his style of work and the state he lead RockPatch to are alienating a great deal of people using RockPatch. And people like 4SG, who still sit there saying "don't listen to them, they can't even code!" aren't making it better.
Even if it turns better for the moment (yes, I saw all his "I fixed that" posts and AG's apology), if his style of work doesn't change, this'll all play out again after the release of RockPatch 1.08 Ultimate Editon #0030.


Sorry if I jumped to "epic mode" there again, but this damn coding argument is pissing me off. Yes, he is the only Assembly coder doing it at the moment, and yes, we are at his grace. But that doesn't automatically mean we have to be happy with everything he does, and it most certainly doesn't automatically make his work "good". You implied it yourself: A little more testing would make things a lot more stable, and lead to less bug reports. I had the same in my 10 points. People like Marsh have said it for ages. But he doesn't care. And, at least in my opinion, his stubbornness has lead to a point where he just doesn't deserve neither the he-is-unique-we-can't-lose-him-loyalty nor the "cut him some slack, Assembly is hard" excuse anymore. We are trying to help, as good as we can. Best example is Marsh's launcher: It'd make using RockPatch so much easier for everyone, inevitably leading to more user adoption - but VK wasn't even willing to discard his stupid (universally hated) string naming scheme to ease integration. VK is asking us why nobody helps writing the docs - yet when somebody touches any RP-related page on ModEnc, he's quick to revert the change. (Favorite quote: "... nobody ask you ..." - not to mention the fact that he discarded the RockPatch Docs on ModEnc in favor of the offline help.)

We are trying to help as much as we can from our non-patching position. If he won't let us, it's not our fault. And as long as he won't let us help reducing the number of bugs and improving the documentation, he'll have to deal with us complaining about the number of bugs and the quality of the documentation.

[/epic]

[DCoder]

terribly bug-ridden ETS

no bug reports, and test version... funny

No bug reports? There were 3 done one hour after the release. And you've replied to their topics there.

And that brings us to the fact that RockPatch uses the bugtracker. VK, more or less, uses it. Yet there still is no category in there to report ETS bugs. That is, there was none, until now. I just made one. And if VK comes up with a reason not to use it, I'll be very interested to hear it.

[VK]

No bug reports? There were 3 done one hour after the release. And you've replied to their topics there.

I visited it later

but they look somewhat stable

look...

I take more time testing my tools than he does with RP,

I spent a lot of time to test it

but they still look more stable than RP.

I am sorry, but it don't look more stable than RP.
If you want I can find any amount of bugs (including Delphi bugs)
via test, like load file 1000 times.

I take more time testing my tools than he does with RP

However, I think that the community can test RP.

he's quick to revert the change. (Favorite quote: "... nobody ask you ..." - not to mention the fact that he discarded the RockPatch Docs on ModEnc in favor of the offline help.)

Somebody, after AliedG post about NewDominator, which is bullshit, (because Type=PsychicDominator works fine), go and change it.

Somebody also think, that he know RP Project status a bit more than me, isn't it ?

RockPatch 1.08 Ultimate Editon #0030.

RP 1.08 in history - forget about it

RPCE is new Rock Patch base.
(Who know: what amount of bugs the next Rock Patch will have

[Nighthawk]

Somebody, after AliedG post about NewDominator, which is bullshit, (because Type=PsychicDominator works fine), go and change it.

That somebody would be me. And that post would not be bullshit. I was merely stating that NewDominator still works. I didn't say PsychicDominator worked any less than NewDominator. I merely said that NewDominator works. Can't you admit the fact that you (perhaps unwittingly) left an old piece of code in that still works? Also, you've said several times now you're going to remove NewDominator, and I've already changed my tags, so stop telling me to change everything.

[Renegade]

See what I mean with VK? That quote was a mere sidenote to show the attitude observed regarding ModEnc, in a post of two pages length - yet it is the only thing he's actually responding to, totally ignoring all other criticism - moreso, he even reinforces my argument by pointing out that nobody but him knows enough to do such updates...

...yet, he constantly complains nobody's helping with the documentation.

[Nighthawk]

I would have helped update the documentation by now, if, like you said, we knew what to update it with.