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+--- Thread: WHAT the hell is going on? #2 (/showthread.php?tid=661)
WHAT the hell is going on? #2 - tsactuo - 26.02.2007
Can you guys calm down and stop those things about RP?
pd, alliedgeneral and others suddenly came here crazy with the release of CE and brought havoc.
CE had very few bugs as a patch and almost every complain had to do with bad documentation and installer problems. And all those got fixed in another super-fast release of a revision. And yet noone said sorry or thanked CnCVK.
You all do, like CnCVK is paid to develop RP. I haven't seen that fanatic and immature complains against E.A. all those years, yet I see them now against a person who is doing (or actually "working" in the last weeks) for the community itself.
Whether CnCVK is doing good or bad, you can't speak to him like that. It's immature. I have participated in other game modding communities and I have never seen such fanatic responses against someone that is doing something for the community. And the worst of all, some of you still don't seem to understand that he is just bad at english.
Personally I am just happy with the way CnCVK works.
However if pd (or any of his supporters) is not, well pd if you have time, you can get the current code of cncvk (or 1.07b one if you don't trust/like any of his work) and let's have 2 separate patch developments. I don't think anyone should had problem with that (we will also have competition). However if you don't have time, I am sorry and I wish you good luck on any of your other projects or school.
To be clear, I appreciate both the work of pd and cncvk and I want to express a big thanks to both for expanding the YR modding community.
However being good assembler doesn't mean you are good at anything.
A post without those words would be unreadable here, so to help you
bullshit, fuck, gay, sucks, ass
END
RE: WHAT the hell is going on? #2 - Renegade - 26.02.2007
No. We do not behave like VK is being paid for RockPatch. We behave like he is ruining a perfectly good product.
I have already detailed my problems with his style of work as well as a 10-point-improvement-plan elsewhere, so I'm not gonna repeat myself here, but: Just because you are happy, just because you like his style of working, doesn't mean you're right and everybody else is wrong.
The very fact that you are unable to name a single one and instead have to resort to "pd, alliedgeneral and others" shows very well that it isn't just a few renegades (pun intended
), but a broad majority of RockPatch users (or not-anymore-users) that doesn't like how VK handles things.You say we should be happy VK does anything at all. In the past, I would have agreed with you - I even propagated the same stance. However, not anymore. If the only work being done makes the patch useless, then I'd rather prefer no work at all - one bug-free, usable version, and that's it. One working enhanced exe with only a dozen new features is better than a not-working one with a hundred new features.
Look at it this way: Let's assume VK invests 28 hours a week into RockPatch. You say we should be happy about that. I ask you: What good is that investment, if nobody uses the resulting product?
VK wastes 28 hours a week if he alienates the users of this patch enough that none of them use it anymore.
There is no use in making RockPatch if nobody wants RockPatch. We have told him, time and time again, what we think is problematic with his work. He can either accept that, and act accordingly, or ignore us, and face a time when he's working his ass off to release RockPatch Celebration Edition SE #0036.........and nobody cares.
We have worked without RockPatch before. Those fed up with VK's work do it again already. So don't think we'll put up with everything just because there's no replacement readily available.
RE: WHAT the hell is going on? #2 - Bobingabout - 26.02.2007
i'm still having problems with some units being randomly immune to the new immunitytypes logic.
RE: WHAT the hell is going on? #2 - AlliedG - 26.02.2007
its NOTHING about CE, its about VK shitty attitude and lack of effort in regards to reading user feedback thinking his patch is perfect and thus released one bugged up revision, read "fuck up" every few months.
http://www.ppmsite.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=160404&sid=c877891458cdb332dd71224b96e2cb56#160404
I even tried to support his version of RP and he just bullshits me
so stop saying I am anti-RP, bloody morons ... I'm actually one of the few modders that actually has moderate understanding of how inis works and what is a bug/issue because of prior experience in TS for instance. (e.g. noticing features working in TS engine which don't work correctly in YR after RP displayed like EMP display issues)
Also if its 2 versions, we can call this one the VK engine as he seems to be think he is emperor
and he can find hosting on PPM ..
RE: WHAT the hell is going on? #2 - blackheartstar - 26.02.2007
1. Feature Freeze - is that not what he is doing now?
2.Use a simple, easy, widely accepted numbering scheme - not sure if you mean inside the .ini (example the aitargeting) or RP releases.
3.Make all versions successors of the previous one - revision #33 is the successor of CE and the predsuccessor of CE#36.
4.Make available an internal beta - Why do you guys feel its so important to have closed testing I see no advantage other than someone will have a go at it before everybody else. Your going to go through the exact bugs that we get now only with fewer people to track them down.
5.Update ModEnc correctly and quickly - He is bad at english so probably not the best idea to have him do this. Plus he made it and gives some help with release it shouldnt be his resposablity to do everylittle thing. It is editable by everyone?
6. Involve the coders of big RP-using mods, like AG, Speeder and Nighthawk in your planning. Actively ask them what they need. These are the people promoting RockPatch. If they don't like it, there's no need to continue coding. - This is what its really about I guess by looking at the current events as some people are not getting exactly what they want so trash it.
7.Look at the votelist. - at the time this was brought up several things from the vote list had been done or worked on. Not a valid complaint. Espeacialy after I just looked at it where FullPalette= is in first. FourthSide, Cloned SuperWeapons, and New Prerequisite tags are all towards the top to further negate this complaint. Its More about advice #6 above than this.
8.Look at the wishlist - Just about everything hes done is in the wishlist. Maybe 2-3 things are not if that. If need be afterwork Ill pull them for quotes if youd like to see but I think it has to do more with advice#6 than this.
9.Update the goddamn bugtracker quickly, actively and precisely- Looking at the bug house he does need to be more precise.
10.Listen. To. Us. It's like I said last post - He does he changed TUT back he put the number system on AI targeting back. We are on a feature freeze, and the last revision addressed the bugs that where brought to his attention the most even if one really wasnt a bug (TUT=) but hey its fixxed.
So what exactly is it you guys want? Other than your way or no way as it seems your stance is.
RE: WHAT the hell is going on? #2 - Renegade - 26.02.2007
blackheartstar Wrote:1. Feature Freeze - is that not what he is doing now?Nope. In no way. Simple example from this revision: NodAdvancedPower -> SovietAdvancedPower.
blackheartstar Wrote:2.Use a simple, easy, widely accepted numbering scheme - not sure if you mean inside the .ini (example the aitargeting) or RP releases.The RP releases, obviously.
blackheartstar Wrote:3.Make all versions successors of the previous one - revision #33 is the successor of CE and the predsuccessor of CE#36.Yes. But CE as a whole is outta the loop. And if you don't believe it, just look at VK's constant reminders that "CE is not 1.09".
blackheartstar Wrote:4.Make available an internal beta - Why do you guys feel its so important to have closed testing I see no advantage other than someone will have a go at it before everybody else. Your going to go through the exact bugs that we get now only with fewer people to track them down.Yes. And that is exactly the point. If we had found and fixed all these bugs before the release(s), the releases would be relatively bug-free. A relatively bug-free version would make working with RockPatch a lot easier and more planning-secure for the modders, inevitably increasing RockPatch's popularity in the long run.
blackheartstar Wrote:5.Update ModEnc correctly and quickly - He is bad at english so probably not the best idea to have him do this. Plus he made it and gives some help with release it shouldnt be his resposablity to do everylittle thing. It is editable by everyone?Yes it is. But try touching one of his pages. Would you like us to call the ambulance in advance?
(Not to mention we can't update ModEnc, because we get such wonderful information like "New Actions support", "something else" and "Another... (not very important)".
...is it PsychicDominator or NewDominator?
blackheartstar Wrote:6. Involve the coders of big RP-using mods, like AG, Speeder and Nighthawk in your planning. Actively ask them what they need. These are the people promoting RockPatch. If they don't like it, there's no need to continue coding. - This is what its really about I guess by looking at the current events as some people are not getting exactly what they want so trash it.No. They didn't get "exactly what they want" under pd either. But the point is, these are the people using and promoting RockPatch. So being nice to them is basic marketing. You can counter-argue all you want, if you have three big mods using RockPatch, and fifty small ones no one has ever heard off, you're practically dead if the big ones leave you. Simply because there is no user-exposure anymore. So VK could at least warn mods like Mental Omega or Third War about flag renames beforehand, and check if there's something easy to implement that'd help them a lot.
It's what I said before - if nobody uses the patch, VK is wasting is time. And fifty small mods nobody will ever hear of again is "nobody". (And no, that's not elitism or anything, that's 6+ years of community experience. It's fucking realism.)
blackheartstar Wrote:7.Look at the votelist. - at the time this was brought up several things from the vote list had been done or worked on. Not a valid complaint. Espeacialy after I just looked at it where FullPalette= is in first. FourthSide, Cloned SuperWeapons, and New Prerequisite tags are all towards the top to further negate this complaint. Its More about advice #6 above than this."Negate"? Have you any idea how long this shit is in there, and still not implemented? Yes, he accidently crossed path with wished wishes 'cause he coincidently wanted the same. But you know what? "More Armor types" is in the votelist since February 12, 2005. That's over two years by now. Now, I know VK wasn't the coder for all that time, but he didn't particularly care either.
"Third Weapon for units/buildings" - added on the same day. ETS has it. Does RockPatch?
You know when the first wish for new prerequisites was put on the votelist? February 14, 2005.
And the list goes on...
Yes, I do realize that they got ignored under pd just as much - but that doesn't mean it's good or right. VK has the skillz to implement such features. In the case of third weapon, he already proved it. But he still opts to ignore any user-input and just code all on his own. If we like it, good for us, if we don't, fuck us.
That is exactly his attitude, proven by his posts on PPM. So don't even try talking that away. But you might just understand how we're not exactly happy about that attitude.
blackheartstar Wrote:8.Look at the wishlist - Just about everything hes done is in the wishlist. Maybe 2-3 things are not if that. If need be afterwork Ill pull them for quotes if youd like to see but I think it has to do more with advice#6 than this.That's because everything is on the wishlist. It's not about accidently doing something that's on the wishlist because everything is there, it's about actively selecting, and actively telling people what he won't do. And if he does something from the wishlist, a simple note about it would be great. Just so people know they're heard.
blackheartstar Wrote:9.Update the goddamn bugtracker quickly, actively and precisely- Looking at the bug house he does need to be more precise.Glad we agree on one thing. Although you just see half of the picture there.
blackheartstar Wrote:10.Listen. To. Us. It's like I said last post - He does he changed TUT back he put the number system on AI targeting back. We are on a feature freeze, and the last revision addressed the bugs that where brought to his attention the most even if one really wasnt a bug (TUT=) but hey its fixxed.We are not on feature freeze. Would he listen to us and finally do a pre-release beta test, these bugs wouldn't even have made it into the release. Would he listen to us and quit renaming shit just for fun, TUT wouldn't have had to be fixed in the first place. And yes, he may have fixed a few bugs that we pointed out last week...but how about one that really bugs people? Yes, I know, he set to "resolved" now (after 5 months), but check the resolution - "won't fix". He actively decided he's not going to fix it. While that is clearly the most complained-about bug of all. Great job listening to us.
blackheartstar Wrote:So what exactly is it you guys want? Other than your way or no way as it seems your stance is.Just what I said in my 10-point-plan. A little less mad scientist, a little more interaction. Nothing more.
RE: WHAT the hell is going on? #2 - Bobingabout - 26.02.2007
i read your 10 point plan and likes it, but i definitly can't be arsed to read this, its 3 times as long!
RE: WHAT the hell is going on? #2 - Blade - 27.02.2007
Without any idea what the bugs are caused by the work involved fixing them (not all are his either, he didn't implement EMP for example), its unfair to complain that he fixes some and not others. He might not have worked out how, it might be time consuming and he wants to work on other things. Bug fixing is often also a problem in open source projects because generally people don't get much credit for fixing them, they get it for doing the fun implementing big new features stuff. The fact is, he IS fixing bugs, the fact that you don't like the seemingly arbitrary way he choose what to fix it irrelevant. I agree with one point, his communication skills do seem poor in comparison with PD's, but that's probably just how he is, some people just don't communicate well, even in their main language. However if CnCVK was the one who had started the patch, everyone would have sung his praises and he would be the darling of YR modding because you would have no one to unfairly compare his style and feedback to.
RE: WHAT the hell is going on? #2 - OmegaBolt - 27.02.2007
Despite the fact I do agree with some of you I also agree with tsactuo. CnCVK is doing this in his own time and out of his own will yet all we do is complain. Sure there are problems but if the problems are so great why do we simply act like spoiled children who would die without the patch?
Whats this crap about bigger mods first? I thought this patch was for the community, not for a select few individuals. RockPatch should welcome newcomers to modding and new mods. Its like saying the old folks of today are more important than the children who will one day replace those. Since these smaller mods will (or some will) one day replace the bigger, older and getting outdated mods then RP has to be able to support them fairly and not becoming outdated itself and supporting clones of other mods since they are the only features available.
RE: WHAT the hell is going on? #2 - VK - 27.02.2007
part from my future RP Project rules.
4.Bug definition
Bug - when feature caused IE, or don't work at all, or don't work as declared.
If something don't work, as you want - this not a bug.
Examples: DropPod SW in RPCE, immunity logic,.
RE: WHAT the hell is going on? #2 - Renegade - 27.02.2007
Blade Wrote:However if CnCVK was the one who had started the patch, everyone would have sung his praises and he would be the darling of YR modding because you would have no one to unfairly compare his style and feedback to.I disagree. If we had had to live with his antics from the beginning, I don't think it'd even have come so far. Didn't you read Banshee's post about how terribly bug-ridden ETS is? People are, one after another, giving up using RockPatch. If that effect had started right at the beginning, nobody would have used RockPatch after RP 1.02 CESE #0039, and it'd have died two years ago.
@OBolt: The point is, by supporting the bigger mods, RockPatch's exposure is widened, leading to more interest in RockPatch, and more smaller mods adopting it, which, in turn, become bigger mods, and, over a certein threshold, get special support.
VK cannot implement the favorite feature of every single RP modder out there. But if he helped out a few big modders, he'd have hundreds of user-RP-installations through just one mod.
Oh, and VK...your cop-outs are just lame. Reminds me of TDWTF's "it works as coded". If it doesn't work, it doesn't work. And if it logically doesn't make sense, even though you coded and described it that way, it's just as much a bug as if it generated an IE.
And, iirc, you admitted just in the next thread that the Immunity Logic is indeed bugged.
RE: WHAT the hell is going on? #2 - Bobingabout - 27.02.2007
immunity logic does have bugs, sure, immunity with EMP doesn't work, but i'm still ocasionally have problems where some units are immune to a weapon, when they are not suposed to be.
(it does apear to be rarer in RPCE than 1.08SE)
RE: WHAT the hell is going on? #2 - Nighthawk - 27.02.2007
Quote:People are, one after another, giving up using RockPatch.I probably would have by now, but unfortunately my mod is entirely dependant on key things in it. Also, a little thing I've noticed with Mouse Cursors, have you changed the numbering system by any chance? It's just now I'm getting frames from other mouse cursors in with my custom ones. Before anything is said, I've just put this in the Bug Tracker.
RE: WHAT the hell is going on? #2 - El D34dlyto - 27.02.2007
I agree with tsactuo and Banshee on this - this is VK's work. If he gets better in English, he will understand you better, I'm sure of that.
And before you go 'We already told him that a million times!', tell him again. He barelly understands more complicated sentences, so it would be best to not use sarcasm against him.
I myself am quite unhappy with a lot of things with RP recently. But the project does get an update much more oftener than any other program I've seen, being done by one man in his spare time for FREE. And no, I will continue to use RP no matter what. The idea of it is just too good to pass by, even if there are a lot of bugs. For all bugs will get fixed in time, if you let VK finish his work. All he needs is some time.
VK, this is something like a personal request - take more time for your next update, but fix all errors in the BugList. Please, they are all very annoying and disrupt gameplay very seriously. Mostly, the Save game bug.
And for Kane sakes, this is a miserable situation. 6 years after the last YR patch, the last remaining C&C modders bitch and fight over a WIP patch. Pathetic.
RE: WHAT the hell is going on? #2 - VK - 27.02.2007
Quote:terribly bug-ridden ETSno bug reports, and test version... funny
Quote:Mostly, the Save game bug.try it again
Quote:Also, a little thing I've noticed with Mouse Cursors, have you changed the numbering system by any chance?no.
Quote:immunity logic does have bugsno bugs there
Quote:immunity with EMP doesn't workRPCE Revision #0037.
Quote:where some units are immune to a weaponthe same