The Reason we left DeeZire.net

[Renegade]

Can you say "Moderator abuse"?

The day before yesterday, for the first time in years (and I'm not exaggerating here) Redemption, an administrator at DeeZire, visited the RA2/YR Editing Section there, and replied in the "To anybody who still visits this place or was sent here thread", saying he'd be around more often now and actually moderate things.

I replyed asking "Moderating whom?", pointing out the reason for the thread. Look at his answer. What? Huh? You can't see it? Oh yeah...that's because he deleted the thread without any reason. Nice of him, isn't it?

He sent me this PM:

Subject: thread
I removed the thread best of luck on your site and future endeavors.

I replied this:

That is ridiculous and you know it. That thread was over six months old - anybody who visits this place already saw and replied in it anyway. All you're doing is preventing newbies from finding a place where there are actually people that can help them.

One moderative action in what? two years? and you fucked over any newbie coming here. Great job moderating.

Have fun in the silence. If anybody actually asks a question, you know where to send him.

And in case you wondered...it's treatment like this that made us move in the first place.

Oh well. We'll see if he answers. As the topic says, that's just the reason we left that dumpster. No moderation at all, and if there is moderation, it sucks and nobody wants it. Was that way way back then, was that way when Cannis was appointed, and it's still the same way today.

All hail the glorious moderators of DeeZire

Update:
ROFL
The reply!! The reply!!! *laughs his ass off*

Do not fool yourself, Deezire has more following and talent than anyone I have seen out there.

When he returns and he will, the site will instantly come back to life. I did not mind the thread, hence why it was still there but the arrogance of the last post, worried me to the kind of forum unsuspecting new member could be going to.

I am sorry that you are frustrated because DZ is not around to help and guide you and others. Make no mistake, the site will be busy very soon!

I replyed this:

Errr...which color is the sky in your world?

The times DeeZire was leading anything in the RA2/YR community have been over for years. We don't need his "guidance". We guide ourselves. For example, we were smart enough to ignore this forum's ignorant decision to block RockPatch discussion and continued it elsewhere. Today, RockPatch is the future of YR modding. His Editing Guide hasn't been updated for years, either.

Again, what world do you live in? I don't know if you accidently clicked the RA2 link on the index, but this discussion is more activity than the RA2 forum has had for months.

I don't know how active DZ is elsewhere on the site, 'cause I frankly don't give a shit. What I do know, however, is that he will not return to RA2/YR modding. If you honestly believe something else, you're delusional. DeeZire, and especially his forums, are an important part of RA2/YR modding history. But "history" is the operative word.

The cop-out you were worrying what kind of forum new members would be lead to is just as ridiculous. I'll tell you what kind of forum they're lead to: An active one. One where people actually knowledgable about RA2/YR modding hang out. And that is why you deleted the thread. Because you know full well people will stay where they get help, and not in a dead forum with nobody.

It's kinda funny how you found my post arrogant. 'cause, had you actually visited in the past few years, you'd no there was no arrogance in it at all - there's nobody here. It's just the truth. Cold, hard, facts. Some of us, like myself, still have DZ in their starting pages, for old times' sakes, and to redirect the occasional newbie to an active place. But that's it. Other than us "watchdogs", there's nobody here. And we have our modding discussions elsewhere.

Play the father figure all you want, telling me DZ will come back and hug me soon, and all will be well. The truth is, DZ left long ago - and we have grown up and accepted it. We don't need him anymore. He had his chance to become even more legendary when his forums were the ones breaking news about post-rules.ini modifications of YR. But instead, his lackeys closed the thread. His loss, not ours.

In fact, our attitude didn't even change. We still do what we did four years ago. Helping newbs coming to DeeZire's RA2/YR Editing Forums. Only by now, the help is telling them there's no help here, and where they should ask instead.

It's nice of you to be loyal to DZ and stick to a "all is well, DZ will return" worldview. But for the rest of us, 2003 is long gone. It was DeeZire's decision to proceed to Generals, Zero Hour, and whatever else he let EA stick up his ass.
We still form the RA2/YR modding community. And, objectively viewed, DeeZire hasn't been part of it for years. His occasional appearance his nice, and his scarce promises entertain the n00bs, but truth is, whoever joined the community in the past two years only knows DeeZire from tales, and the fact his name is on the Editing Guide.

The outdated, inaccurate, and incomplete editing guide.

Play sheriff all you want in the RA2 section. It's not like you could actually hurt anybody. And history has taught us that moderators' interest in our section only lasts for weeks (at max) anyway.

I just think your behavior is an ugly illustration of how much this forum has deteriorated over the past few years.

I may have jumped to "epic mode" there again, but that doesn't change the fact it's true. Sadly true, but true.

Update 2:

I am trying to understand this, you complain about a link that was removed from our dead forum?

If it is a dead forum then why even bother? By the way, I enjoyed how you posted our private messages on your forum. I thought private messages where intended to be private? That shows your level of maturity.

As I said on the previous post, good luck on your future endeavors! You where and active member on this community at one time and we will surely miss you!

Well, you were the one who deleted the public thread and forced PMs on me. I usually don't even check these, I just had the feeling you might have sent me something after you deleted that thread without explanation.

I think if you wordlessly delete the only important thread in this section after six months, people might as well see your "reasons" behind it. Or do you mind if I actually make people aware of the fact that your only moderative action in this forum in years consisted of deleting the only thread that was useful?

The point of that thread was that, every once in a while, a newb follows an outdated link, or somebody out of touch with the community sends him here for editing help, because they still have 2003's image of the big and mighty DZ RA2 editing community in their head. And there's nobody here. Their questions go unanswered. That thread told these people were they could find people knowledgable on the subject, allowing them to get their questions answered even though they were sent to the wrong forum.

You killed it. Now we'll either have to tell each of them individually to go somewhere else, or they'll post their questions, bump them once or twice, and then leave frustrated. And all because you can't handle the truth: These forums are only valuable as an archive. There are no discussions here anymore. There is nothing to moderate. In fact, had you done the right, good thing, and stickyfied that thread, the post count would actually have decreased even more, 'cause we wouldn't have had to bump the thread every two months or so.
But that's exactly your point, isn't it? Linking people somewhere else takes away the few users that are left. Fuck them. Who cares if their questions actually get answered, as long as you can say there are still people posting in that forum?

I assume, from your replies, that you think I'm kinda "emotional" about this, close to crying or whatever, but the truth is: Nothing will change. That is what you don't get. The thread is gone. That makes sending people away more inconvenient. But nothing else. DeeZire still won't come back, there still won't be any sophisticated editing discussions, and there'll still only be around 5 newbs a month who ask a question. We'll still tell them to search before asking and to go some place more active, and that's it. Nothing new, no sudden surge of users, no nothing.
You seem to think we're using the situation to "recruit" new users for our forums. What you have to realize is that the alternative is that, without our linkage, they'd
a) either give up frustratedly because nobody answers their questions, or
b) actively search for an alternative forum and end up at our place anyway.
"Community" is about helping each other. This place cannot help them anymore. But instead of helping us help them, you just made this place one degree more sucky, and established once more why we're not discussing here anymore - the moderation sucks.

This place is dead.
You could have had the courtesy to help all of us by accepting it and telling people where to get help instead (even saving you from the "work" of having to show up here every few years), but you chose to do what all moderators here do, and fucked us over.
Gotta give you credit for following established procedures, but, like I said...it won't change anything. You won't stop us from making people aware of more active forums, be it ours or PPM, and you won't suddenly force everybody back by vanishing links.

Just at least have the balls to come out and be honest for once. Stop giving me all that public relations nice-talk, and just admit you killed the thread 'cause you don't want us to lead people away from here, no matter if this place is of any value to them or not.
It's not even that I don't understand that attitude. I wouldn't like people linking my users somewhere else, either. But I'd tell them directly and ask why they want to leave, instead of just vanishing it and pretending it didn't happen.

But you don't care for the users anyway, do you? Otherwise you'd take the time to actually respond to what I say, instead of giving me these two or three lines of "thank you and good luck in the future" stuff and dismiss what I said.

Ironically, that attitude is exactly what made us set up a new forum in the first place.




P.S.: Don't assume I'm hurt or anything. I don't expect you to understand what you have done or why it was bad, and I don't think anything will change. I'm just replying because I'm curious what you'll answer...it gives a nice insight into the mind of DeeZire moderators. You'll be back in General Discussion in a few weeks anyway.

Update 3:

I do not customarily bother with pointless debates, however since you are attacking my integrity I am somewhat compelled to correct you on the errors.

The reason for removing the thread was the one stated, your thread was on the forum for six months and I removed it because I did not want traffic going to your site? If I wanted to delete the thread for that purpose, I would have done so six months ago.

This is the last message on the matter, you have no ethics or character. You wanted to go public, I am all for public however I am not in the habit of posting pm's for my amusement.

Was this long enough or do you want me to go on?


Regards,


Redemption

The reason for removing the thread was the one stated, your thread was on the forum for six months and I removed it because I did not want traffic going to your site? If I wanted to delete the thread for that purpose, I would have done so six months ago.

Oh please...you honestly want me to believe you deleted a multiple-page, months-old thread just because you didn't like the attitude of one post?
You're either blatantly lying, or the worst moderator I have ever seen. If what you say is true, and that was your motivation for deleting the thread, it was totally out of line and way beyond reason.

Then again, you pretend you decided it was not necessary to delete the thread six months ago, which either means you're lying again, because you pretend to have been watching while you weren't, or you were there, which means you actively ignored my personal request for stickification of the thread, and our needs for moderation to get rid of the n00b invasion as a whole.

Either way, you failed to properly do your job again.

This is the last message on the matter, you have no ethics or character.

Which one of us, again, silently deleted dissenting opinions?
Oh right, that was you. Good position to judge ethics and character from.

You wanted to go public, I am all for public however I am not in the habit of posting pm's for my amusement.

Once again, you forced PMs on me. You are the one trying to silently kill the thread without anyone noticing. Why would I support you in that, after your reasoning for it is more than dubious, and you're obviously trying to abuse your position out of sight?

Had you done your job and cared for us, that thread wouldn't even have existed in the first place. Instead you fucked up a year ago, making it necessary to move, fucked up again six months ago, by not helping us move, and fucked up again, now by trying to stealth-undo what we did.

I'll make it simple for you: Why did you not notify the general public of the deletion of the thread, and why did you not give a reasoning for it in your initial PM?
Surely, had I misbehaved to a degree that warrants instant-deletion of threads, you'd have notified me to not do that again, right? Instead I got a message basically saying "I deleted that thread kthxbye". That doesn't actually make me feel like I did anything wrong. It feels more like we have been neglected for years, you now expect a sudden surge in visitors through Tiberian Wars, and are preemptively trying to get rid of the skeletons in your closet, so the new guys don't realize how uninteresting and unwanted parts of the forums are actively being neglected here.
What's the matter? Are you afraid DZ couldn't rise to it's old glory, if the TW crowd realizes an entire section of the forum was mistreated enough to collectively move?

Was this long enough or do you want me to go on?

Oh, please go on. It's telling.

[AlliedG]

The reason we mainly left is because 1) Deezire doesn't care 2) only n00b questions which have been answered 1000 times appear and 3) no moderators care

I appreciate the indepth PM response I think, but seriously don't go to Deezire.

[Blade]

I'd give you an A for passion, but only a D for diplomacy, you ripped in with an inflammatory tone straight away. That's what you use after the reasoned discussion has failed to sway someone in a debate.

[Renegade]

There was no need for discussion...he's obviously not gonna change his position, and neither am I. This is just about showing how dubious his points are. I mean, come on...deleting an entire thread because he found one honest post of me arrogant, without notifying anybody but me, and without giving proper reasoning? You've got to be kidding me. Not even I do that, and people are up in arms whenever I dare pointing at my admin stars.



Then again, maybe I should do that...

[Bobingabout]

maybe blade should be moderator. he's 1 of the few RA2:YR modders i look up to, although i have seen most "Mod gods" including blade get stuff wrong, blade is probably 1 of the best around

[Marshall]

The times DeeZire was leading anything in the RA2/YR community have been over for years. We don't need his "guidance". We guide ourselves.

I think this is the most important point of the whole discussion. With the knowledge base contained within modenc and the numerous breakthroughs, discoveries, projects and tutorials that have been developed since DeeZire's departure, my next point is easily reinforced:

You where and active member on this community at one time and we will surely miss you!

We who? Renegade *was* an active member of the community? In fact the reality is that the community was an active part of DeeZire, but no more.


PS. Don't get me wrong about DeeZire himself; he was a great inspiration to us all and provided much for the community. But he chose a different path and the community had to "leave the nest".

[Whiteboy]

^^ Yes, we grew out of it I'd say. The problem is, it's still a big hit on search engines. Thus, many new people still end up at DZ as their first community forum to ask questions in. The deleted thread served a noble purpose, regardless that it wasn't pro-Deezire.net.

And might I add, if Redemption was such a good Moderator, then why has this thread not been moderated? It's not exactly a subtle case.

[~Jeeves~]

One day... The great Deezire shalt walk yet again his people, and they shall prosper. Upon that great day of reckoning, all posts shall be deleted, and the allknowing moderators shall say stupid things without having to fear being overheard...
That, or they could just grow up, get out, smell the Kahlua, and not say anything that might bite them in the arse.
Pity though, I first found this place from that link and I'm glad of it - even if suposedly inferior, its worth checking every now and then

[Bobingabout]

this thread

yer, that thread really should be deleted, for more than 1 reason.

[RB_ImGay]

Awwwww... A good battle, I love a good bitch war between people. Cheers for Ren.. Im behind yeah!!

Anyways.. As for DZ, he sucked anyways.. The poor bastard pissed off a lot of people, me being one of them way back in the day when he thought he was someone. As for Redemption.... Well I think he needs to go find this so called "GREAT" DZ and stay there.

As for DZ coming back.. Nahhhh.. I dont think that will happen. He has given up on all those who use to depend on the poor bastard. I beleive once you screw someone, they will never forget. So DZ should just stay the hell where ever he is at.

As General Chang once Quoted: "It's better to forget than forgive"

There are a lot of good modders out there. Its people like those who want to make a difference for others and stick with it. Those are the ones who will be more successful. Not those like DZ who just run off and never come back around.

Ren. Youve done a great job with what youve done so far. Keep it up man! You know you have one person here supporting you.

Thanks

[hopalongtom]

If he saw fault in that last post he could have just deleted the post and not the whole thread!

Deezire was the first place I got sent when searching for Ra2 mods but I never registered there because the site was a mess and it took ages to find anything.

[Blade]

DeeZire was a good modder and he did a lot more for the modding community than you give him credit for RB_ImGay. I'd say his mod was more of a testing ground for various things he'd got to work rather than a serious attempt at an expansion to the game, but that doesn't excuse putting him down with baseless claims. Like many modders he moved onto other things that interested him, I drift of now and then and don't exactly do loads of modding myself. I'm sure you'll get mored of modding RA2 eventually. Remember that his modding guide could be considered a fore runner of modenc and indeed much of the information was used to fill out modenc. Eventually those entries will get filled out with more information and corrected and updated, but even so that knowledge will have poured through many RA2 modders minds. That of course doesn't justify his moderators being arses and not listening to reason. The problems with DeeZires boards aren't directly his fault, its just that he's moved on and they are still there, but being neglected. I doubt there is anyone with the passion to moderator those properly now though, especially the RA2 ones. The "To anybody who still visits this place or was sent here thread" was IMO always a worded as a bit of a finger to the establishment, but to be fair it made a good point and shouldn't have been deleted as it was. Closed with an explanation and left to sink would have been a better solution if indeed any was really warranted.

BTW, thanks for the vote of confidence Bobing, like most people there are times I've read someones claimed to have 'researched' and quoted it when a similar question has been asked without testing it. I don't think there is anyone who hasn't got something wrong. I admire the few people who are actively looking at the collective wisdom and systematically testing it, I'll bet there is a lot we still get wrong. As for me moderating, be careful what you wish for. I might just follow you round censoring references to your mod all the time

[AlliedG]

I'm sorry he apparantly moved on? ..

He asked people on the forums to help update the editing guide and people did but nothing happened .. he promised to release the ART word documentation he had "somewhere" and never did.

He moved onto Generals and BFME ...

He doesn't care who visits the forums and his site has been left in limbo for ages.

Let the old dog die with dignity .. shoot it in the head with a shotgun.

[RB_ImGay]

Well everyone has there own opinions about DZ, but still I think he sucks!!