So, the question popped up

[pd]

(Pop quiz: if I publish a "final completed 0.2 public edition" tomorrow, how many of those "too busy with real life" people will suddenly find time to play with it?)

What puzzles me is why you don't do just that, because after all that's exactly what you want to achieve and what will probably get the train rolling again.

I get it, you don't want to do buggy untested releases like in my days or - likely even worse - VK's, but seriously, it cannot be that bad. Bugs happen, people find them (and it really doesn't matter whether it's Speeder or a random newb), the word is spread, the community works. People won't be butt-mad about a bug or two. But obviously they are about nothing (visible) happening at all, and reading a formally phrased "fuck you lol" composed in 80 minutes of precious time won't exactly be motivating them either.

In any event, I gather I'm not the only guy with that opinion I expressed in my last rant here. Maybe instead of spending 80 minutes on picking apart every detail of those posts, spend them on wondering about why they are even posted. I have that weird kind of feeling that it's not because all is well and there's just a bunch of polemics complotting against Renegade because it is 2012 and the end is near.

[¥R M0dd€r]

Only going to reply to a few quotes, because this wont lead anywhere.

My word...don't you people have anything better to do on the last day of the year?

hehe, I was partying all night

So basically, you openly admit they're dirty liars and aren't really busy, they're just too lazy to help?
That's really helping your argumentation.

I am not calling them liars. It takes a lot more time to beta test add than add feature to your mod hence why they would appear when it is released.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA
One would think you fell flat enough on your face last time you claimed that.
Apparently learning isn't your thing.

It wasnt 100% stable in October. But fairly stable and releasable. Of course, you are going to disagree here.

Please provide evidence for your polemic lies unsupported claims.

my memory

Right! After all, the project isn't associated with you and your name, and you didn't invest any work in it, so who gives a shit if people get a bad impression, right?

So you are scared about getting a bad reputation if you released a buggy patch?

Its not the end of the world. Fix-patches could be made.

Right. Who'd have to code, check, package and release those, again?
Oh, right. Not you.

sure, its a bit of extra work. But its better than keeping it forever, isn't it?

[Orac]

Wasn't there some issues around the volume or requitred testing it takes to merge the various branch versions into trunk?

My personal, very layman's view of the situation is that it can't take an unreasonable amount of time (relative to not testing at all) to take a feature, apply it to a few dozen different units each with another of the logics with which it could plausibly interact, and test it. If that model of testing has any merits then I can't see it taking more than a few weeks with a few testers to get things releasable.

IDK, though. The breakdown of communication has been pretty complete.

[eva-251]

Oh, this is gonna be good. Blaming the victim is always fun!

Your over-blown and highly dramatic reactions are always good, I agree. But victim, really? Little/ineffective promotion. Sites? Mmhmm. A developer with a hostile and rude disposition toward anyone half-critical of him? Yeah, you're a victim alright.

Awww...what a letdown. I was hoping for something outrageous, instead I got something pathetic. A pity.

So sorry. I came to express my views on a project that I support. I apologize I don't have every bit of information you have, that I can make errors and don't think you're a poor victim of the circumstances.

Ares is not and never has been hosted on Renegade Projects.
Ares is a Strategy X hostee and its location at http://ares.strategy-x.com/ has always been broadcasted, including, but not limited to, the Ares readme coming with every release package.
You will find that the Ares site properly links to the news, forums and the bugtracker, as you expected.
Feel free to check the Web Archive if you need to check whether it's always been that way.

I will concede to being wrong in regards to Strategy-X and Renegade Projects. (however something suggests the management is the same)
However, if you look at the Ares site, the news is fed from Renegade Projects forums (news that isn't current) and the bugtracker ISN'T properly linked, given it has moved from the bughouse linked on the site.

So wait...the fact that both Nighthawk and I have, on multiple occasions, attempted to find someone to go to other forums and represent Ares is evidence that we shun a large chunk of the community?

More likely, this is just another point showing how little you actually know about what's going on here.
Maybe next to visiting chat, you should also catch up on Ares's news from the past year.

"Attempted" is the key word. Attempt doesn't imply success, and contrary to the popular notion, the thought isn't what counts. The results are what counts.

I would catch up with Ares news, but given that the only source of current info is an IRC chat, it's kinda trivial. I'm up to date up to September however.

I must say, though, that your entire argumentation looks a bit far-fetched: If you were so concerned about seeing activity, why didn't you just visit chat?

I haven't gone to the chat mostly due to inconsistent internet. My connection to IRC servers randomly drops without it telling me I've been disconnected (I'd realize only when I start typing messages in only for them not to show up) and after a while of this, I got sick of it. And when I had more consistent internet available, I was doing more meaningful things (coursework, projects, other games).

And the few times I visited chat since about, eh, September when I got sick of the disconnections...it was silent as a graveyard.

And that will be all I have to say.

[Modder666]

You know, it was a beautiful day outside. I got some work done, spent 90% of the day suffering from a New Years Eve hangover from hell, and I'm even modding at the end of the night.

Can we stop this useless argument? I don't see anyone getting anywhere with these massive forum posts trying to pin blame about why things are the way they are. Just drop it, and let's start working to get things to where they should be.

Goddamn, 80 minute post. xD

[Beowulf]

Really? Are we arguing about this? Come on guys. Jesus.

[Renegade]

@pd: I can only tell you what I told half the people here already: Join chat and stay for a while instead of making wild-ass guesses from afar.
Or, you know, use your existing experience to release Ares 0.2 Final Complete pd Edition. It's open source. You've got the tools, you've got the knowledge. If you honestly think randomly assuming our delay is pointless and just releasing the code as it is is the best option, go ahead and do so?

I am not calling them liars. It takes a lot more time to beta test add than add feature to your mod hence why they would appear when it is released.

It takes longer to add a feature to your mod than it takes to add a feature to your mod?
Say what?

It wasnt 100% stable in October. But fairly stable and releasable. Of course, you are going to disagree here.

"releasable". With campaigns destroyed.
Oh well, it's not like your sense of "quality" isn't known.

Please provide evidence for your polemic lies unsupported claims.

my memory

You know, I distinctly remember you saying you particularly enjoy prancing around the house in pig-tails and a tutu to j-pop music...

sure, its a bit of extra work. But its better than keeping it forever, isn't it?

Independent from the fact that I'm pretty sure you're not qualified to judge that...do you volunteer to do that "bit of extra work"?

I'm serious. It's an offer. If you publicly promise to the community (posting announcements here, on PPM and at least one other forum) that you will work tirelessly to fix all bugs cropping up in 0.2 and release patches as soon as possible, I will advocate skipping testing and releasing 0.2 into your care.

We could be working on 0.3's features by tomorrow. You just have to accept the responsibility.
Oh, and quality code, of course. No shitty code that takes thrice as long to maintain as a proper fix.

Your over-blown and highly dramatic reactions are always good, I agree. But victim, really?

Your argumentation boils down to "the Ares developers directly created the apathy they're complaining about."
There's no difference between that and arguing "she shouldn't have worn that skirt if she didn't want to get raped".
The community's apathy is the community's apathy. We most certainly didn't force them to not give a shit. We tried to involve them in a number of ways, a number of times. Nothing ever succeeded...because no one gave a shit.

Little/ineffective promotion.

Feel free to talk to our resident Project Ambassador about ways to improve our promotion techniques.
As long as you don't specifically tell what's wrong, there's hardly a way to improve it, is there?

Sites? Mmhmm.

That was a very clear point of critique. I will assume that PPM is also doomed, because...sites. Mmhmm.

A developer with a hostile and rude disposition toward anyone half-critical of him? Yeah, you're a victim alright.

I am a victim of concentrated, oozing stupidity stealing my time indeed.
This entire conversation would not have needed to have happened if any of you spent more than five minutes a month actually getting involved, instead of doing drive-by-judgements from afar.

So sorry. I came to express my views on a project that I support. I apologize I don't have every bit of information you have, that I can make errors and don't think you're a poor victim of the circumstances.

Oh, I'm sorry. I must've missed your "support" among all that absence, silence and basically not doing anything but randomly dropping in and voicing reality-detached complaints.

Maybe we have differing opinions about the meaning of the word "support", but personally, I do not consider the general state of "I have no ill will towards this project" as "support".

I will concede to being wrong in regards to Strategy-X and Renegade Projects. (however something suggests the management is the same)
However, if you look at the Ares site, the news is fed from Renegade Projects forums (news that isn't current) and the bugtracker ISN'T properly linked, given it has moved from the bughouse linked on the site.

Both the news as well as the bugtracker link are in exactly the state they are supposed to be in at this moment in time.

You will be happy to know, though, that that will soon change.
Maybe you can rest easier at night, then.

"Attempted" is the key word. Attempt doesn't imply success, and contrary to the popular notion, the thought isn't what counts. The results are what counts.

By your logic, trying to save the life of a gunshot victim is the same as pulling the trigger yourself, because attempts don't mean jack shit and results are what count.

I disagree. Feel free to hop over to the off-topic forums and open a philosophical thread about this, I'll be happy to discuss it in detail, but in my personal view of life, the universe and everything, an attempt does count.

I would catch up with Ares news, but given that the only source of current info is an IRC chat, it's kinda trivial. I'm up to date up to September however.

Then you'll have to accept that you don't know what's going on inside, and that, therefore, you're not qualified to comment on Ares's internal state and plans.

I haven't gone to the chat mostly due to inconsistent internet. My connection to IRC servers randomly drops without it telling me I've been disconnected (I'd realize only when I start typing messages in only for them not to show up) and after a while of this, I got sick of it. And when I had more consistent internet available, I was doing more meaningful things (coursework, projects, other games).

And the few times I visited chat since about, eh, September when I got sick of the disconnections...it was silent as a graveyard.

That is usually the case when one is disconnected...

Can we stop this useless argument? I don't see anyone getting anywhere with these massive forum posts trying to pin blame about why things are the way they are. Just drop it, and let's start working to get things to where they should be.

Well, luckily, I did spend the night getting some stuff done, and, if the others agree, we'll probably post some news later today.

Oh, wait. I'm the evil dictator. My bad.
Supreme Dreadlord Renegade declares there shall be news! WUARGH!!

[Modder666]

Well, luckily, I did spend the night getting some stuff done, and, if the others agree, we'll probably post some news later today.

I am 100% genuinely glad to hear that.

[Deformat]

Oh my God, why. Why did I have to open this thread...

therefore, you're not qualified to comment on Ares's internal state and plans

Yeah, well, this is probably the only bad thing I found in all of your posts. Don't be so anti-transparent, just don't. People don't like it.
Otherwise, the website and everything looks alright now, everything is transparent and nice and, well, done.

Somehow, since PPM is the most popular YR modding site, maybe you/we could ask Banshee to create a testing forum there as well? Might help the progress out.
That's my only idea...your latest newspost covered all other problems reported.

I'm also glad the website was updated. Another thing that might sound blasphemic - shouldn't the website be something like ares.renegadeprojects.com instead of ares.strategy-x.com? Just sayin'. Might help the promo stuff.

[DCoder]

shouldn't the website be something like ares.renegadeprojects.com

Ares is not and never has been hosted on Renegade Projects.
Ares is a Strategy X hostee.

[Renegade]

therefore, you're not qualified to comment on Ares's internal state and plans

Yeah, well, this is probably the only bad thing I found in all of your posts. Don't be so anti-transparent, just don't. People don't like it.

Um, excuse me? The problem there was his refusal to inform himself, not our refusal to share information.
You could've found out all our plans for this move by the beginning of October, had you simply decided to be where we discuss our plans: In chat.
It's not our fault people do everything in their power to not know what's going on, and then try to judge what's happening based on hearsay and guesses.

The github account, for example, has been registered and in use since mid-October, and has, logically, been part of our code-related conversations ever since. All anyone would have had to do to notice SVN was obsolete was drop by and listen. Out in the open. In public. No other prerequisites.

The transparency is there. It's just that nobody gives a shit.

Otherwise, the website and everything looks alright now, everything is transparent and nice and, well, done.

You do realize that I simply updated the links to point from old to new, right?

Somehow, since PPM is the most popular YR modding site, maybe you/we could ask Banshee to create a testing forum there as well? Might help the progress out.

We don't even have enough test reports for our own site, fracturing the reports even further wouldn't help anyone.
Plus, iirc, some of us can't actually post there anymore, so it's not a good place to conduct development-related discussions.

If you actually have followed Ares's news history, you will know that I'm all for involving the community, especially in tests.
But I have also learned the hard way that the community simply doesn't care.
So, personally, I wouldn't predict a bright future for such a forum anyway.

[Mig eater]

Having the IRC as the main source of news regarding Ares is very limiting IMO, I think what DCoder recently posted on launchpad regarding a bug report sums up why; "if I was on IRC when you reported that, doesn't mean Ren or Alex were, and what should they do if they want to know the status?"

[Deformat]

You do realize that I simply updated the links to point from old to new, right?

Yeah.

You could've found out all our plans for this move by the beginning of October, had you simply decided to be where we discuss our plans: In chat.

Yeah, but as Mig summed it up, IRC is a tad limiting.

[Renegade]

Again, you are both conflating two entirely different things: News in terms of "current events" and news in terms of "current announcements of developments".
Our news section(s) are for the latter. They contain announcements of developments at whatever time said developments are worth or need talking about.
If you want to stay up to date with current events, you'll have to go where they happen currently: In chat.

Chat and news section are not the same, and they do not relay the same or the same kind of information. Chat is neither an alternative nor the main source of Ares news. Chat is where Ares is happening.

You can look at it this way: Chat shows you what is being developed. The news tell you what has been developed.
The news report on the event. Chat lets you see the event.

There's really nothing new or revolutionary about this - it's just a question of what you want: If you want solid, concrete information about our plans and developments, read the news. If you want to watch each individual issue develop from idea to summary news post, watch it happen in chat.

Chat is not a very quick news section.
The news section is not a very slow live log of development.

They are different ways of communication, used for different purposes. It is your choice which of the ones you frequent, but be aware of which one you choose and the consequences of your choice.


Alternatively, of course, as I have underlined numerous times in this thread, we are always open for community involvement and help - feel free to drop a bot in chat, log what's happening over the day and provide summary daily Ares news posts to the community. It's absolutely a realistic possibility, if you're ready to invest the effort.
If you're not, however, don't complain that we aren't, either.

[~Guest~]

"Independent from the fact that I'm pretty sure you're not qualified to judge that...do you volunteer to do that "bit of extra work"?

I'm serious. It's an offer. If you publicly promise to the community (posting announcements here, on PPM and at least one other forum) that you will work tirelessly to fix all bugs cropping up in 0.2 and release patches as soon as possible, I will advocate skipping testing and releasing 0.2 into your care.

We could be working on 0.3's features by tomorrow. You just have to accept the responsibility.
Oh, and quality code, of course. No shitty code that takes thrice as long to maintain as a proper fix."

Add a donate button, raise money to hire a programmer to do exactly that.

Personally I never use chats because either a) they're so fast it's impossible to keep up (hyper-active chats) or b) they're deader than a burnt tree. I've never met a middle ground.