On Ares, Probabilities, the Future and the State of the Community

[WoRmINaToR]

Yeah, sorry for my inactivity in testing Ares features... Life's been kicking my ass too, as appears to be the case for quite a lot of people here. I've had little free time between school and extracurricular activities (mostly marching band), and I've really had time only to poke my head in the bugtracker, see that nothing new has happened, wonder why the heck it's so dead, close the window, and move on. I felt like posting anything on the tracker or testing anything would be useless because there seemed to be no activity from either developers or testers.

I have realized now that that was a grievous error in judgment.

I have some spare time today as I was sick from school, and the band's state championships are afternoon tomorrow (meaning the season's pretty much over), and homework seems to be easing off on me a bit, so I should be able to make some contributions as a tester.

Plus, I finally brought myself to set aside a blank unmodded rulesmd.ini file strictly for Ares testing, so I am no longer restricted to features I am inclined to implement in my mod, as well as the notion that I don't want to implement other features in the interest of not screwing up my mod. Don't ask why it took so long for this idea to dawn on me, but I am now ready for versatile, dedicated Ares testing.


And if I didn't make it obvious enough, I really don't want Ares to die. For me, Yuri's Revenge was my first love for modding, and no matter what other games I mod, Yuri's Revenge has always been a constant for me. No matter how long of a break I take from YR to go play other games, I always come back. And Ares makes modding so much more fun, opens up so much more possibilities, and well, frankly, it keeps me comming back to this game.

Honestly, who needs the community anyways? PPM doesn't need us and we don't need them. Most of the prominent members of Revora(that is, the hardcore modders) are already members here and are contributing. The only community that should matter is the one right here at Renegadeprojects. And really, if Ares can change just a few major mods in the community (which it has already easily accomplished), don't you think that's enough reward?

What about your own mod(s)? Do you ever plan to use Ares to make a mod of your own?

[Orac]

What about your own mod(s)? Do you ever plan to use Ares to make a mod of your own?

So far as I can tell, Ares is their mod. It just happens to be a hell of a lot more ambitious and labour-intensive than most other mods.

[Modder666]

Most of the prominent members of Revora(that is, the hardcore modders) are already members here and are contributing.

Not to be nitpicking, but how are Speeder and OmegaBolt the 'hardcore Revora modders' when Apollo and Starkku have their projects as stand-alone and AlliedG has a pretty large project as well? Not to mention they're all using NPatch due to a lack of support for their own feature needs, and aren't going to rewire their whole mods until they do?

[WoRmINaToR]

I should change "most" to "many" for clarification.

And for the record, those that are using NP still because Ares doesn't have what they need yet will most likely keep their eyes on Ares' development and will probably switch when it becomes advantageous to them.

Ares is quickly gaining on NPatch's feature list, and as soon as NP's feature list (for the most part) makes it into Ares, NP will be so outclassed by Ares that nobody would stay with that old piece of garbage.

Oh and also, While his mods are hosted on his own network, I think I can consider Beowulf a prominent member of Revora, as well as yourself.

[Modder666]

I'd point out the fact most of those "probably switching" modders lol at Ares due to the way it's developed, the feature list, and how instable it can be at times. While you may think they're switching, rewiring an entire game from one patch system to another is NOT the easiest thing in the world to do, and would set them back so much time it's not even worth doing for current mods. I talk to Apollo and AG almost daily.

Don't forget that NPatch has online stability that can't ever get tested by Ares by the slack testers. I've tried to get so many people to do online tests with me and it's never worked. I think the last time I used Ares online was back before 0.1 came out.

Another nitpick (yes, I seem like an ass but it's only fair to mention ) point is that Fen's only released stock RA2/YR modifications and I've yet to release anything, no matter how much I use Ares.

[DCoder]

Well, that was motivating...

[Renegade]

Can you seriously be demotivated by positive claims about NPatch?
I've been immune to that since

I always test only basic things; I assume that other bugs will be found by community.

Seriously. Using "NPatch" and "stable" in the same sentence is a joke.
And if 0.1 P1 is unstable, I have yet to hear about it. Maybe he's talking about the exact reason we're trying to keep testing versions out of sight - morons judging Ares by unstable builds.

I did find m666's post rather enlightening, though. If the community truly "lol[s] at Ares due to the way it's developed", then I am more than proven in my suspicion that the majority of modders today is simply too dumb for Ares.
I mean, seriously: We're talking about basic development practices like not randomly releasing untested, buggy builds of shit, using source control, and actually tracking bugs.
If not developing like a bunch of drunk monkeys with no understanding of quality is a laughing matter to the community, I rather doubt they'll be capable of using Ares effectively anyway, only substantiating that we're wasting our time.
It's understandable, though...the comprehensive manual, with the list of over 160 bugfixes and features in 0.1 alone, can be a little overwhelming. No comparison to NPatch's "manual".

In addition, so far, this turned out exactly as predicted/expected; I appreciate the "verbal" support, and I understand that you've all got lives, too, but the fact of the matter is: If nothing changes, nothing changes.
It would be nice if more people actually tested, but that still wouldn't fix the core problem of the community not giving a shit.

Even if a few of you helped with the manual, took screenshots, etc...if the moronic majority not only doesn't care, but actually laughs about efforts to offer more quality than the endless collection of crashes and inconsistencies that NPatch was...why continue?
They can happily celebrate the anniversaries of NPatch's best crashes features every year, while we can focus on something with a less complicated development base, less headaches, more fun, and more long-term value.

[Modder666]

If the community truly "lol[s] at Ares due to the way it's developed", then I am more than proven in my suspicion that the majority of modders today is simply too dumb for Ares.

Except you completely misunderstood me. They laugh at Ares because modding is a hobby, and the Ares development treats it like a job. They're not gonna bother with Ares because it's not a fun process; incomplete feedback is often dealt with harshly and big community requests often never seem to get any feedback from developers (in the case of air guard mode and custom palettes for animations). It's not hard to find examples of this, the bug tracker is open to the public and the massive arguments that have occurred, on occasion, over them because someone merely stated a bad idea.

And in my personal stance between the battlefield, Ares development can be complicated at times. I can't test Chrono Prisons because I have no fucking clue how they were implemented. Sure, there's an Abductor= tag for weapons but what else is needed? Had I any time between jobs, I would have asked on the Bug Tracker. However, this was more testing in a 5 minute period and I realized half of the things implemented in Ares aren't really explained well when they're in development. For instance, I remember testing the radar jammer feature with no real idea on how to implement it on a unit until Reaperrr posted the tag after delving into the .dll with a Resource Editor.

If not developing like a bunch of drunk monkeys with no understanding of quality is a laughing matter to the community, I rather doubt they'll be capable of using Ares effectively anyway, only substantiating that we're wasting our time.

This is the kind of attitude that detracts people from using Ares. When you have lead developers insulting people for their preference over how they want to enjoy their hobby, why should they bother coming to something like Ares? The attitude that "we're better than VK at coding because we have about the same attitude but an injection system" isn't really what people want to see.

It's understandable, though...the comprehensive manual, with the list of over 160 bugfixes and features in 0.1 alone, can be a little overwhelming. No comparison to NPatch's "manual".

And at PPM, native English speakers have had issues understanding the "comprehensive" documentation. At times, I've even had difficulties determining exactly what I'm supposed to do due to the language usage in the documentation. Let's not also forget that not everyone who mods speaks perfect fluent English, and the level of proficiency needed to use the documentation can be quite intimidating.

[DCoder]

While you may think they're switching, rewiring an entire game from one patch system to another is NOT the easiest thing in the world to do, and would set them back so much time it's not even worth doing for current mods.

Like Worm said, if our stability and features are worth less to them than the time investment in switching, they should stay where they are. Simple rational reasoning.

Don't forget that NPatch has online stability that can't ever get tested by Ares by the slack testers.

There's a shocker... I don't see what we can do about that though, short of threatening to wipe the tester list (again), and that is getting old.

- The rather professional approach to Ares, the BugTracker, and testing can be quite intimidating to some of those not experienced in the community.

They laugh at Ares because modding is a hobby, and the Ares development treats it like a job.

Like I said earlier - we established a process and workflow, which is needed for any serious software project more complex than "Hello World". It might be unfamiliar to modders, but working without it is ineffective for us. You'll just have to get over it.

(Oh, and having a working process is one of the reasons we don't lose progress due to system crashes. pd lost his research at one time, iirc Hyper did too, and I'm not even counting how many times I've seen a post about a mod being canceled/put on hold because the author's PC went titsup. Or even "halp I don't know what I changed since yesterday, but my unit no longer works!!1!". Backups and version control are a good thing.)

I can't test Chrono Prisons because I have no fucking clue how they were implemented. [...] I remember testing the radar jammer feature with no real idea on how to implement it on a unit until Reaperrr posted the tag after delving into the .dll with a Resource Editor.

Fair point. Both of those were developed by Ren though, he might want to take note of this.

Members on PPM may not be quite interested in Ares when they know the developers won't come support them

And at PPM, native English speakers have had issues understanding the "comprehensive" documentation.

It's PPM, who cares.

At times, I've even had difficulties determining exactly what I'm supposed to do due to the language usage in the documentation.

Got an example? If it's that bad, open a bug about it, or preferably offer an alternative way to write it... Feedback matters.

not everyone who mods speaks perfect fluent English

People who don't speak English having problems reading English text, surprise? This is not unique to Ares documentation.

[Nikademis Von Hisson]

Well, I know I pissed off Renegade and DCoder for questions that would have seemed self explanatory in the past. I know my nephew Drizzt Do'urden has done the same. Neither of us wanted that, I have been trying to learn as much as I can to create a new mod, and my nephew has not learned from my mistakes on reading and how to ask questions. Now I have had a more drinks than I can count, but I would like to help in any way I can to further the progress to progression of ARES. I applaud those you who are trying to advance the RA2/Yuri game. I feel that editing the ini files of RA2/Yuri is easier than generals/ZH. Also, the way you edit the game and create maps is a bit easier in RA2/Yuri. I have more time on my hands than I can count. DCoder and Renegade, I am sorry for past issues, I have thought you two to be a**holes, but at the same time some of the more intelligent people in the game. I would like to help contribute to the advancement. If you can give me instructions on how I can contribute and what you expect I will do my best. If I feel I can not help contribute to the game I will be honest and let you know. I want to be able to create a mod that deals with conventional warfare, not far fetched. I like the way TI has gone and from what I have seen so far Cranium's mod. I would like the chance to able to help to contribute. I am not some kid, I have been playing Electronic Arts games since I was 16 (1986, now 40) and I played Red Alert game when it first came out. The first game I played of EA is Artic Fox. For those of you who don't know the game...it was a arctic version of BattleZone. A first person shooter game using tanks, instead of people.

Now, before ARES was introduced I was able to add people, buildings, vehicles and super weapons to the ini. For the past year I have been working on making vehicles, buildings and terrain using 3D Studio Max, more than my mod. I would assume that adding those to the game is the same. I have started reading the docs on ARES a little more in depth and have noticed the changes. I would like to help, I have no computer language programming skill, but I can test and give feedback since I have plenty of time. Since it has been released I guess I can say I was a beta testers for test Twisted Insurrection. If I can help please let me know.

EDIT: I was kicked from TI testers because it was felt I was nit picking on certain items, but was brought back in by Aro. If I feel something sucks or not worthy, I will make a comment whether it is negative or positive. You can love me or hate me for my feedback on something. I am honest in my opinions.

[Renegade]

Except you completely misunderstood me. They laugh at Ares because modding is a hobby, and the Ares development treats it like a job. They're not gonna bother with Ares because it's not a fun process;

No, it doesn't.
Ares development treats a giant-ass software project involving reverse-engineering, deciphering a comment-less, nameless API, converting it into usable C++ headers, and then injecting code back into that mess as what it is: A fucking complicated software project.

Ares development doesn't treat YR modding as anything, because Ares development isn't YR modding.
This may surprise you, but we don't just extract rules.ini from the exe, re-write it, and inject it back in. It's a bit more complicated than that.

So if the reason the community has no interest in Ares is honestly that they don't grasp that writing Ares and modding YR are two different things requiring two different approaches, then that only underlines previously made points.

And if you think it could be done better, and other exe-modifying projects are good examples of that: See both D's example of source loss, and my quote from VK.
Or, you know...see how many of these projects are still around and making meaningful progress.

This is a serious issue, though: If the community is not going to support Ares because it actually takes work to achieve something, we should settle that right now. Because that will never, ever change.

incomplete feedback is often dealt with harshly

Well, duh. I mean, look at you right there: On one hand, you complain about the lack of features of Ares compared to NPatch, you complain about lack of feedback from the developers, you complain about how hard the process is, and on the other hand, you complain when we expect the necessary information to actually do anything.

The perfect example of this kind of shit is feature filing: Filing a feature correctly is fucking simple - you set the category to "Feature Request", you set the severity to "feature", and because you obviously can't reproduce something that doesn't exist, you set the reproducibility to "N/A".
...I had to sit down thrice and write code on the tracker to finally stop people from incorrectly filing features.

Why the fuck would we happily and cheerily accept submissions of any kind, if it's quite obvious the submitter cares so little that he can't even be bothered to do the slightest bit of work?
Somebody expects me to invest a week of my spare time to implement his favorite feature, yet can't even be arsed to set one little input field from "always" to "N/A"?
And you expect me not to be annoyed by that?
Sorry for being human.

And if you think this is just one those cases were we take things too seriously: Ask reaperrr, who went through the tracker during DFD, and found a good dozen features who weren't even being considered, simply because some moron filed them wrong and they never appeared in the filters.

Seriously, do you have any idea how ridiculous this is? You complain about the lack of features and the supposed instability, and then complain about the fact that we dislike it when we don't get enough information to do anything about it?

Should we just cast a spell, sacrifice a goat, and then God reads the mind of the submitter and conjures up the code?

It doesn't work that way.

and big community requests often never seem to get any feedback from developers (in the case of air guard mode and custom palettes for animations).

Alright, what kind of "feedback" would you have liked on #349?
"We hereby acknowledge that we are not completely blind, and, as we developed ICS and this issue consistently popped up at the top of the list we were developing, we kinda noticed it existed."?
For fuck's sake!
The thing has an ACS score of 59, almost three dozen supporters, was judged upon thrice during DFD, and referenced a dozen times over.
Of course we fucking realize it exists.

So what do you want us to post in the comments?
"Hi."?

Plus, you know, this is the part where the not-redneck-approach comes in:
Issue statuses don't magically change on their own.
If a feature request is set to "acknowledged", that's not solar winds flipping bits on the database server - that's a developer -gasp!- acknowledging the request.
Given that unfeasible and undesirable requests get closed, what exactly does that tell you?

Also, quite frankly, had you actually read the DFD-related material, you would know that the primary reason for the DFDs was the fact that there were too many feature requests for us to wade through alone, and that we asked the community for help with that.

Which, you know, explains why we don't post in every single comment thread.
But hey, who cares for long-known, multiple-times-discussed details?
Clearly we should post on every single of our 1300+ issues every day, no matter if there's anything useful to say or any reason to post at all.

So yeah. If you want specific feedback on a specific issue, say so.
If all you want is "hi, I'm a developer and I've seen your request" - tough luck. Status: Acknowledged will have to suffice.


That all being said, I spot my own avatar on #349 at least 4 times, so I really don't know what you want there.

It's not hard to find examples of this, the bug tracker is open to the public and the massive arguments that have occurred, on occasion, over them because someone merely stated a bad idea.

Bullshit. Examples?

There are exactly two reasons arguments happen:

• the developers point out it's a bad idea and the submitter doesn't want to accept that, leading to resistance
  
• the request isn't 100% bad or unreasonable, but there is disagreement about the priority it should take or its implementation
  

I don't remember a single instance where a developer or the community simply pointed out something was a bad idea, gave an explanation, the submitter understood, and then there were fights anyway.
It just doesn't happen.

Arguments only happen when the submitter or the supporters disagree that something is a bad idea, and we're not in control of that.

So yeah.
If you want to keep your claim of "massive arguments [...] because someone merely stated a bad idea" up, feel free to provide actual evidence - especially since you claim "It's not hard to find examples of this".
We can then discuss those curious instances.

And in my personal stance between the battlefield, Ares development can be complicated at times. I can't test Chrono Prisons because I have no fucking clue how they were implemented. Sure, there's an Abductor= tag for weapons but what else is needed?

"Added INI parsing for Abductor=(true|false) for issue #680; not hooked up to anything yet."
"I did just commit an implementation for Abductor=(true|false) on WeaponTypes"
"So go get your build and test the shit out of Abductor=(true|false) on WeaponTypes!"

Yes, I can totally see how difficult it is to figure out which flags are relevant to Chrono Prison testing and how to use them.

I could make reference to the whole 70% issue here again, but I think it's obvious on its own.

Had I any time between jobs, I would have asked on the Bug Tracker. However, this was more testing in a 5 minute period and I realized half of the things implemented in Ares aren't really explained well when they're in development.

What do you want to know that's not explained?

Oh, right, I'm sorry, I forgot - I'm not allowed to bitch about crappy feedback, and instead have to use my mind-reading powers to figure out what you want.

For instance, I remember testing the radar jammer feature with no real idea on how to implement it on a unit until Reaperrr posted the tag after delving into the .dll with a Resource Editor.

Yes, that's a cute little populist example, only conveniently leaving out the following insignificant details:

1. That was one time I accidentally forgot to mention the flag name in the commit message. It's not like I simply committed with no explanation and then expected anyone to guess the flag, I just forgot to mention the damn flag name - once.
   
2. I actually learned from that experience and made damn sure to mention the Chrono Prison's flag name often enough. So it's not like this is a continuous issue, as you try to imply, it was one time, and it was a valuable lesson.
   
3. Lastly, your sad little implication of how the evil developers left you hanging and it took reaperrr's initiative to figure out the flag name is complete bullshit.
   Yes, reaperrr did seek out the flag name, and I'm thankful for that, but it's not like you were neglected for days and reaperrr was forced to do that to enable any kind of progress at all.
   
   I committed at 7 in the morning, forgot to mention the flag, returned at 8 in the evening, saw the question, and saw reaperrr's answer.
   So had it not been for reaperrr, you would have been information-less for a little over 13 hours. Boohoo. Sucks, wasn't intended, but half a day without a flag name certainly doesn't equal a continuous lack of documentation over the entire course of development.
   
   To be honest, at this point, I'm beginning to wonder if you're intentionally blurring the facts.
   

This is the kind of attitude that detracts people from using Ares. When you have lead developers insulting people for their preference over how they want to enjoy their hobby, why should they bother coming to something like Ares? The attitude that "we're better than VK at coding because we have about the same attitude but an injection system" isn't really what people want to see.

WEEEEEOH WEEEEEOH WEEEEEOH WEEEEEOH WEEEEEOH WEE---
Oh, sorry - that was my strawman alert.

I'll be happy to discuss this point with you when you start accurately representing what I said - namely, that I talked about our development practices, and not their enjoyment of their hobbies, and that I never claimed to be better than VK at coding, nor that said non-existent claim would be because we use an injection system, which makes so little sense, it is a mystery how you even thought that would be a good claim to make up.

So yeah. Go back, accurately tackle my stance, and we can discuss this further.

And at PPM, native English speakers have had issues understanding the "comprehensive" documentation. At times, I've even had difficulties determining exactly what I'm supposed to do due to the language usage in the documentation.

So where are the bug reports? Where are the people at forums we actually frequent telling us this? Where are the proposed fixes? Where are the native English speakers offering to help?

Oh, right - the community doesn't work. It just bitches behind people's backs and expects them to recognize issues through mind reading and fix them without proper feedback.

I keep forgetting that.

Let's not also forget that not everyone who mods speaks perfect fluent English, and the level of proficiency needed to use the documentation can be quite intimidating.

Yes, I can see how utterly complicated it is to comprehend a paragraph like

[Unit]â–ºSpotlight.StartHeight= (integer - leptons)
Specifies the number of leptons above the ground at which the spotlight will be generated. Defaults to 250.

Clearly the facts that this flag goes on a unit, sets the starting height for a spotlight, that said starting height is given in leptons above the ground, and that the default is 250, are barely comprehensible, and I needed an advanced degree in English to parse that.

Again, examples? Bug reports? Suggestions for improvement?
This is exactly shit I was talking about.

You complain that we treat a lack of feedback harshly.
Yet you sit here, complain about an issue with the documentation, and don't give me the information I need to fix it!

What do you expect me to do now? Randomly change sentences in the documentation, in the hopes that the community stops writing complaints I never saw the in the first place?

I am here. I am ready and willing to fix the issue.
You won't let me.

Which of us is the problem?

[Modder666]

Which of us is the problem?

I don't really care to wade through, quote, and respond to everything. I'll just take myself as the problem and leave. Enjoy Ares folks, I could care less.

[Renegade]

And that right there is the problem I was talking about, and the reason it seems pointless to continue Ares development.

[DCoder]

Oh FFS. Quitting is easier than reading and working out the problem?






I am disappoint.

[WoRmINaToR]

Not like M666 will be back to see this anytime soon, but a couple small things I wanted to point out:

Don't forget that NPatch has online stability that can't ever get tested by Ares by the slack testers.

While I did not report this, I have tested a significant multitude of times with several different people and I found that Ares is completely stable whilst playing online, at least with two human players. It got dicy when AI was involved but I think that's mostly issues on my part.

And if 0.1 P1 is unstable, I have yet to hear about it. Maybe he's talking about the exact reason we're trying to keep testing versions out of sight - morons judging Ares by unstable builds.

While I have made the mistake of showing certain morons these unstable builds, I want to emphasize Renegade's point here because it's an important one.

Furthermore, the claim alone that builds of Ares (even testing ones) are unstable is quite bullshit. I have not had a single crash from Ares that wasn't either my own mistake or a result of (what I think is) using widescreen resolutions (which are forbidden in YR online play for a reason), or a crash caused by an in-development feature that is expected to have bugs anyways.

And I've been testing this thing and actively using it almost daily since revision 270, and I've been keeping up-to-date for the most part and testing most of the major revisions, and several branch ones.

Another nitpick (yes, I seem like an ass but it's only fair to mention) point is that Fen's only released stock RA2/YR modifications

Oh, come on, now. Aren't you the beta tester that bitched at me in his Red Alert X forums about my extensive criticism and feedback for the mod (and then found yourself at a loss when Fen acknowledged my criticisms and told you to pipe down)?

That mod DOES use Ares, you know.


And to all those assertions you made that the community is too stupid to understand and accept Ares' more involved development structure, testing system, and manual... I say, "Who cares?" If they are too stupid for us, we don't need them. I know I sound like an elitist asshole, but honestly. If they are too dumb for Ares, then they can stick with their significantly dumber NPatch if that works for them. I personally think the bugtracker system is an indescribably helpful resource for managing issues and feature requests, but it does require that the submitters of issues file their issues correctly. The SVN is an advanced system for backups and version control, and it should only be handled by experienced individuals anyways. Launch Base was made to support Ares for a reason. The manual is incredibly detailed and is an immense resource for understanding Ares features and how they are implemented and what they do. I know it takes a reasonable degree of intelligence to understand some of the more complicated features, but those features are generally those which require more intelligence to understand how to implement anyways. That is not the manual's fault, and it's not the Ares coders' fault.

I think that if we can have an active community of intelligent modders right here at Renegadeprojects that understands this system, understands Ares, understands the manual, and puts it all to good use, then no matter how small the community, I think it will have made enough of a difference for enough mods.

Of course, that's my personal belief. If Renegade's major object of this project is to get the bulk of the RA2/YR modding community to support this patch, that's his initiative, and on that note I understand his frustration with the community. I care more about how this patch has made my modding experience so much better, and I care about the several people who have participated in this project and have used Ares in their own mods and have benefitted from it. If the rest of the community doesn't particularly care about us right now, let them stay with their stupid NPatch. Then, in a year or two, let's see how they feel about the progress of certain major mods that do use Ares, and let's see how they feel about how much more awesome those mods are for it.