Rock Patch 1.10 development thread

[Nighthawk]

You have used analogies like this one to illustrate this particular point at least five times now, it didn't help. Stop wasting your time, there's clearly nothing you can do to make the puppets think for themselves.
This is just like fucking Jesus Camp, the puppets raving and drooling, ready to die for their (false) god.

I wouldn't say everyone's jumping through VK's hoops. My mod depends on Rock Patch to work, yet I'm still sticking with Ren's views on this, even if it results in the end of the RockPatch.

[DCoder]

I know not everyone is jumping, hence that quote calling "the puppets", not "everyone"

[Nighthawk]

My apologies then, I misunderstood.

[VK]

again:
1)the coders of patch don't need any demands
2)King Ren is free to do that he want (and he do this).
3)about new versions page:who allow you to do this?
you want merge you version with my?
No, I aganist it; this page created by me and not vandalized by me.
and you tell after this, that you do nothing?
4)about AliedG posts;
he doesn't use it, hate it -> so I don't heard his opinions here.
this thread won't be locked;

so now King Ren should:
1)return my page back
2)put his page as "Ren's Versions"

I don't terrorist at all.
All we is totally free here

[Bobingabout]

if you look at the changes, 1.08SE should have been 1.08b, 1 new feature and bugfixes. most of PD's letters added 1 new feature and bugfixes. the fact that its name was 1.08SE is just VKness.

and like i said, when VK said "RPCE is not RP1.09", well, he must have changed his mind. maybe he just meant "Do not call RPCE RP1.09". you know he has bad english. i mean, he used ABSOLUTE instead of OBSOLETE, which atleast in a programming sence are 2 words that mean the exact oposite.

[Renegade]

First of all, VK, let me thank you for not addressing the dozens of things I said to you. That makes me confident my reasoning was good.

Now, for your latest ridiculous blabber:

again:
1)the coders of patch don't need any demands

Then resume 1.10 development? After all, you don't need that page to be deleted, right?

2)King Ren is free to do that he want (and he do this).

Is that why you say I have to delete that page, "or else"?

3)about new versions page:who allow you to do this?
you want merge you version with my?
No, I aganist it; this page created by me and not vandalized by me.
and you tell after this, that you do nothing?

I can see now why you went with the Offline Help...you're totally not understanding the concept of wiki.
You do not own any page.
Just like the dozens of _I and _II pages we have, your page was a useless duplicate, a topical overlap that shouldn't even have existed in the first place. I left it standing purely for the sake of the discussion, as it might have calmed you to have your own versions page - since not even the very clear link-renaming ment anything to you, I see no further reason to clutter ModEnc with two seperate versions pages instead of one page explaining them all. And I assume who ever actually saw the current version will agree with me that there's no need for a second one.

4)about AliedG posts;
he doesn't use it, hate it -> so I don't heard his opinions here.
this thread won't be locked;

Yeah, yeah...stupid free speech thingy...

so now King Ren should:
1)return my page back
2)put his page as "Ren's Versions"

With what rationale? What is the logical reason why RockPatch should have two seperate version pages, if one works just fine?
Why should I do that?
Why is the current page not acceptable to my Lord?
Why would I create a page with a possessive page name, if the page is not owned by me?

Just quit the act and admit it's never been about the stupid versions page.

I don't terrorist at all.
All we is totally free here

Really? Then how come you behave just like one? How come, if we're all free here, you want to force me into things?


I would like to point out to everybody that, as soon as RockPatch:Versions contains the official versions, as VK wished,
and the traditional mapping is even more clearly marked as "not official", as VK wished, he goes and says it must be seperated again, not even saying why.

If this was so important to him, why isn't he happy now?


Maybe because I was right all along?

This is not about me, and which version numbers I'd give past RockPatch versions. This is about VK, his ego, and his attitude. Nothing more.

@bob: How do you like the current mapping? It goes against the CE - 1.09 rule, but I thought if it's officially unofficial anyway, we might as well discard the official rules and go with logic instead.

[FS-21]

What you made Renegade!!! (I said Renegade but exactly I don't know how made that page, sorry )

I'm sure that 1.11 and 1.13 will not exist (like 1.09 version) for VK because is VERY HARD to add 4 fing characters ("1" "." "x" "x") to his future released version names like Summer Edition and Hells Edition, because is required to have very high skills in programing and assembly knowledge to know how include those characters to do all the people happy
(I was joking, because if he include those 4 characters is like if Renegade "won" the discussion)

ok, and because currently this is the classic "Who has the biggest eggs" children discussion between Ren & VK (sorry by the example guys but this remember me that type of discussion )

[Renegade]

I am not quite sure...are you sarcastically implying that now, Summer and Hells will be denied numbers as well, because I gave them some, or are you genuinely upset?

[blackheartstar]

How am I doing almost exactly the same as he is doing? When have I ever said anything to the effect of "resume coding, or else..." in this discussion? All I'm doing is actively not complying with his orders, while he is trying to order me around. That looks like two totally different things to me.

When you frist posted the unoffical version VK changed it to be the offical page. Instead of letting it be (since it was offical) or splitting it there you deleted it re ordering it into the unoffical vision you wanted. Now after he made his own seperate offical page you let it be.

That implies that I am trying to force you on my side - did I threaten you with anything? Did I not try to reason instead, over three pages now, while all VK does is screaming "BULLSHIT" and make demands?

No your making your side sound just, good, and right. Any view thats not yours is a bad thing. Its a more subtle form of manipulation. Your not blackmailing or threatening/strong arming you are manipulating through your wording. Kinda like a politican running for office who disputes his runningmate postion with politely worded slander.

Are you saying all the people telling me to delete the page are not doing so because VK threatens to end RP?
You yourself said they were actually agreeing with me, yet, every few posts, there is one telling me to take it down.
If that is not their actual opinion, is the fact that VK wants them to say that not the only explanation why they would speak against their own opinion?

I have yet to see someone 100% agree with your number scheme, but they agree VKs could be better. I had my view on the talk page of you version you and bobing disagreed with it then blade and marshal posted here with alternative views of how it should/could look in case you need examples of yours not being diffenitive. The counterdiction of opinion comes in on a form of value system. They disagree with VK but the object of disagreement is trivial and not worth all of this. Not that they have been bent to his will just that in the end they dont care.

No. Just plain no.
If you read the still-current version, or the original one, you will see that I included some jabs at his naming system (calling it "wacky" and "meaningless", among other things) - if you check out his page instead, you'll see that he attacked me, personally, and on a much lower standard ("stupid" vs. "wacky").

My personal opinion of his naming system is not slander. That's just plain false. And the fact that my page was up first has nothing to do with that. As I noted above, he showed numerous times he was able to edit the page - if it was just the word "wacky" troubling him, he could easily have removed it without killing the entire page.

(And all of that doesn't even take into account the amount of slander he put up in pd's releases' direction - even though pd never even said anything on this topic.)

Looking at that first paragraph

This page maps VK's meaningless and repetitive version-names to version numbers similar to those used by pd, allowing users to keep track of the up-to-dateness of their patch version the traditional way, rather than just guessing which version is which. This numbering scheme is not endorsed by VK, and, given his randomness in picking the version names, might experience dramatic shifts after a new version was released (e.g. if he adopts traditional numbers again - he seems to be planning to release a "1.10").

Traditional lower case character suffices to denote revisions were forewent in favor of a second minor number, simply because VK releases too many revisions for such a scheme. (1.10 would be up to 1.10k using that.)

You dont see any of this as being abit offenceive to VK? If this was written about yourself instead of VK would you not take it badly? Once again its all in the wording where you didnt say anything horrible the general gest of it does down play VK. Where VK had no right to say any of his countless instances of slander you through the first stone in that bout. Just becouse its on a higher level dosent discount the fact it was said. Heck he is so cought up the the version scheme that he probably never even pickedup on any of it. I myself do not understand VKs constant downplay of PD. He says he means no offence when confronted about it sometimes before he even writes it ,but it always comes out that way. It could be language problem but who knows. I would discuss this with him just as we have been here but he doesnt allow for that.

...dude. VK threatened the entire community over a stupid opinion piece and vandalized one of my sites 6 times. He also threatened multiple times to do stuff himself if I didn't bow to his demands. How could I ever look bad if I banned him? In fact, I honestly believe that, after actions of this magnitude, repeated this many times, and causing so much trouble, he'd already be banned globally on any other network.
You are right, I don't want to come off as the bad guy. But not because I fear to look bad when I protect my server from a vandal, but because I'd rather not come off as the guy who killed RockPatch, for which VK is so cleverly trying to frame me.
I dont see

I dont see how anyone can actualy feel threatened by this. If he stops well guess what hes not taking RPCE with him. Do you count it as vandalization every time somebody edits there? It is a publicly editable wiki after all. It was the versions page of the patch hes working on. You put up a unoffical he changed it to offical. You where both doing the same thing only you own it and can choose what goes and what dosent in the end. As you have proved once again buy merging them together. Buy this Im not implying you should take it down or change it or that your wrong Im just giving a pov. VK was wrong to continue editing after the ban but to him your a random guy spreding what he sees as fauls info about his work.

Again, I ask you: Where do I work with such methods? Where in this discussion have I threatened bans to people with dissenting opinions, or killing RockPatch if nobody agrees with me?
I have banned VK from ModEnc, yes. Because he vandalized multiple pages several times, and kept returning after he was banned. That is no unique behavior to me, and would have been handled anywhere else in just the same way. In fact, many communities would probably have banned his forum account as well, just to be sure.
So, where am I working on the same level as VK??

I said your own brand of propaganda not that you were working on the same level as VK, but now that you mention it his whole king ren prop campaign is very similar to your own god vk prop campaign. As I said the refferences to terrorism make it sound like to people running for mayor. VK with less tact and threats / you with the silver tongue.

Yes. And the interesting question following that observation is: Does the fact the he childishly got upset over a nuisance to this degree give him the right to react the way he does?
Am I automatically the bad one, just because he is the one who got upset?

No not at all, and I'll say I belive you get more flak out of this just becouse your open to disscus things where VK is not. People may very well have some words for VK but he doesnt present himself enough or in a way to properly convay them.

How is it "stubborn" to not allow him to force me into doing things to my server?
If some random person came into your house and demanded you burn your furniture, would you consider yourself "stubborn" for refusing to do that?

The crime you depict is much worse than some coder changing a list of his releases to be his offical release sequence on a publicly editable wiki page. When somebody he is probably looking at as a random guy keeps changeing it back. He was techincly doing the exact thing you where converting it back. Its easy to forget that this is actual ownd by you thus the content can be decided by you.

I think more people would disscus complaints with VK in this same manner we are currently disscusing things with you if VK would actualy reply and explain himself. As I said thats why you get more of the flak than he does becouse you actual talk back which I find to be very cool

If he stops he stops I'll take RPCE and run with it as plenty has been added already.

Alot of this was written last night.

[FS-21]

If VK not specified a number, calling them as a name like RPCE... well... time will tell, I prefer to be wrong about what I said before

[valcyrilestrada]

Guys, this is not being about a puppet, this is not about siding with Renegade and or CNCVK, but THIS IS FOR THE CONTINUITY OF ROCKPATCH. Like almost all of you,I want ROCKPATCH, I want to discover lot of things, I want to continue modding. These arguments are worthless and I can see the end of this is the death of ROCKPATCH. And for you renegade and cncvk, better patched this things up or else......... ROCKPATCH will die and accept it.. were all gonna be sad

[TheMan]

I agree valcyrilestrada.
I want RockPatch to continue damnit!!

VK say to Ren exakt what you want and the we hope the he accep it.

[Renegade]

When you frist posted the unoffical version VK changed it to be the offical page. Instead of letting it be (since it was offical) or splitting it there you deleted it re ordering it into the unoffical vision you wanted. Now after he made his own seperate offical page you let it be.
[...]
Do you count it as vandalization every time somebody edits there? It is a publicly editable wiki after all. It was the versions page of the patch hes working on. You put up a unoffical he changed it to offical. You where both doing the same thing only you own it and can choose what goes and what dosent in the end. As you have proved once again buy merging them together. Buy this Im not implying you should take it down or change it or that your wrong Im just giving a pov. VK was wrong to continue editing after the ban but to him your a random guy spreding what he sees as fauls info about his work.
[...]
The crime you depict is much worse than some coder changing a list of his releases to be his offical release sequence on a publicly editable wiki page. When somebody he is probably looking at as a random guy keeps changeing it back. He was techincly doing the exact thing you where converting it back. Its easy to forget that this is actual ownd by you thus the content can be decided by you.
[...]

You are, either willfully or out of ignorance (in the neutral meaning), misinterpreting what I and what he was doing.
He did not just edit the page. Maybe this is not obvious to you, but there are two kinds of edits on a wiki: Progressive and destructive ones. Had he discussed the edits beforehand, and there had been consent that the edit should be performed that way, it would have been a progressive edit - moving the page forward to the next stage in its evolution. No problem with that, and exactly what I did later (only that I didn't need to discuss it first, because I didn't remove any information - I only added and rephrased). What VK did was destructive editing - he simply removed information, without any explanation. And it is general policy, both on ModEnc as well as other wikis to revert such edits. Simply because there is no way of knowing why the information in question was removed, or if the community consents with the removal.

Let me re-emphasize the point here: I added his information to the page. He removed my information from the page. Without explanation or general consent. That is the important difference.

No your making your side sound just, good, and right. Any view thats not yours is a bad thing. Its a more subtle form of manipulation. Your not blackmailing or threatening/strong arming you are manipulating through your wording. Kinda like a politican running for office who disputes his runningmate postion with politely worded slander.
[...]
I said your own brand of propaganda not that you were working on the same level as VK, but now that you mention it his whole king ren prop campaign is very similar to your own god vk prop campaign. As I said the refferences to terrorism make it sound like to people running for mayor. VK with less tact and threats / you with the silver tongue.
[...]

You keep on saying that, but I have yet to see any proof or example?
Is stopping development to force me to delete valid content not "bad"?
Is resisting such aggressions to not set a precedent for further repercussions not "good"?

By putting RP on hold for everybody, VK is punishing the entire community for his childish little dislike with my version mapping - a version mapping his own, stupid declarations of "the version between 1.08 and 1.10 is not 1.09" made necessary.
I merely don't comply with groundless orders to delete content on my server.

You can twist and turn this as you want, but I still don't see how my behavior is in any way "bad" or like VK's. It shouldn't even require any kind of "propaganda" to justify having to desire to delete content just because some stranger wants you to.
As mentioned before: No other site would comply with this. How is it "propaganda" if I don't, either?


("No other site" assumes that the owner of that site owner is not impressed by VK's threats either. People who's entire site depends on RP (e.g. RP mod sites) might comply...but then we're back at VK's doings being blackmail, which still makes him the offender, and the site owner the victim.)

I have yet to see someone 100% agree with your number scheme, but they agree VKs could be better. I had my view on the talk page of you version you and bobing disagreed with it then blade and marshal posted here with alternative views of how it should/could look in case you need examples of yours not being diffenitive. The counterdiction of opinion comes in on a form of value system. They disagree with VK but the object of disagreement is trivial and not worth all of this. Not that they have been bent to his will just that in the end they dont care.

And, conveniently, you ignore that, just as announced as probably necessary on the original page, I just yesterday updated the naming scheme, and come close to what both you and bob said on the talk page.

This is what I'm talking about the entire time. Consent. Go check the current page. See if you still don't agree with it. If not, leave a message on the talk page, we'll discuss it further. No problem, and just as I announced in the notes section of the very first revision.

It's not my fault it's hard to match a reasonable numbering scheme to a futile versioning scheme. I still think the changes in SE and CE74 would warrant their own versions...we just don't have any numbers left.

Looking at that first paragraph
[...]

You dont see any of this as being abit offenceive to VK? If this was written about yourself instead of VK would you not take it badly? Once again its all in the wording where you didnt say anything horrible the general gest of it does down play VK. Where VK had no right to say any of his countless instances of slander you through the first stone in that bout. Just becouse its on a higher level dosent discount the fact it was said. Heck he is so cought up the the version scheme that he probably never even pickedup on any of it.

What is, from a versioning point of view, the meaning of "Celebration Edition"? Is it the first version? The last? The one made by a guy named "Celebration"? In context of events surrounding its release date, it may have been accurate to call it a celebration edition.
But in the general context of all other RP-versions, "Celebration Edition", "Celebration Edition 74", "Summer Edition" and "Hells Edition" are most definitely meaningless. They convey no useful versioning information whatsoever. So as offensive as you might want to interpret this, "meaningless" is exactly the right word to describe these names.

As for the repetition: There have been three 1.05s and three 1.04s by pd. There have been thirteen "Celebration Editions" by VK. And that doesn't take into account that of 22 characters in "Celebration Edition 74", 19 are equal to the previous name, and the added number not only conveys no versioning information again, but actually confuses by looking like proper versioning, but actually referring to a totally different topic.

"Meaningless" and "repetitive" are accurate descriptions of VK's naming scheme. They may not sound nice, but that doesn't change their accuracy. If his system wasn't meaningless and repetitive, I'd have no reason to call it that. So if he doesn't like it, it's in his power to give his future names meaning.

(Actually, that's not even necessary...I myself am a great fan of code names, too. "Feisty Fawn" ftw. But not as a replacement for proper versioning. A simple "RockPatch 1.09 ('Celebration Edition')" would do the trick. But nooooooo - "CE IS NOT 1.09!!! BURN IN HELL!! YOU GET NO SUPPORT!!! RAH!! RAAAAAAAH!!!". :roll: )

I myself do not understand VKs constant downplay of PD. He says he means no offence when confronted about it sometimes before he even writes it ,but it always comes out that way. It could be language problem but who knows. I would discuss this with him just as we have been here but he doesnt allow for that.

..."language problem"? You blame constant disrespect of pd on "language problems"?

I dont see how anyone can actualy feel threatened by this.

The point is not whether anybody feels threatened by it, but whether he actually does threaten us/you.

If somebody pointed a gun at you and said "I'll shoot you if you don't give me your money!" he threatened you. Period. No matter if you feel threatened by it or not.

And actually, The Man's post above shows the fear quite well. "No matter whether what VK does is right or wrong, no matter whether you're right, Ren - COMPLY, GODDAMNIT!"
"They" will support anything that pressures me into complying with VK's wishes. Simply because VK is telling them alternative is the loss of RockPatch, and they don't want that. Hostage-taking, blackmail, terrorism - whatever it is, it's executed perfectly. (Well, almost...there's no loot for him.)

If he stops well guess what hes not taking RPCE with him. [...]
If he stops he stops I'll take RPCE and run with it as plenty has been added already.[...]

I halfly agree with you. This may or may not be a surprise, but we have actually...err..."talked" <_< about a situation where VK leaves, and I think it'd be best to continue with 1.08 - VK may have done a lot in the meantime, but do you really want to give him a chance to claim copyright and whatnot?

Either way, if that case ever occurs, as ridiculous as that thought may seem to you right at the moment, please talk to me about hosting. I am confident, even given your major disagrees with me in this discussion, that you see that I did not interfere at any point in time with RockPatch's development or hosting...so there'd be no reason to move somewhere else, turn all links useless, and require excessive re-learning in the community, just because I have an opinion on VK's version names.

As I said, you might find the thought ridiculous right now, but please consider it, should you take over. I'm really not as bad as VK tries to make me look. ;)

No not at all, and I'll say I belive you get more flak out of this just becouse your open to disscus things where VK is not. People may very well have some words for VK but he doesnt present himself enough or in a way to properly convay them.
[...]
I think more people would disscus complaints with VK in this same manner we are currently disscusing things with you if VK would actualy reply and explain himself. As I said thats why you get more of the flak than he does becouse you actual talk back which I find to be very cool :)
[...]

The fact that you realize that speaks for you, but it doesn't change the fact that I'll have to keep defending myself, while he is the one who started this and puts pressure on everybody -_-

Attacking me simply because VK isn't there isn't exactly a nice thing to do.




Bah, can't be arsed to re-read everything...TV is on.

[DCoder]

I still think the changes in SE and CE74 would warrant their own versions...we just don't have any numbers left.

Think outside the box - 1.0A , 1.0B... 1.0F, 1.10...

[blackheartstar]

Either way, if that case ever occurs, as ridiculous as that thought may seem to you right at the moment, please talk to me about hosting. I am confident, even given your major disagrees with me in this discussion, that you see that I did not interfere at any point in time with RockPatch's development or hosting...so there'd be no reason to move somewhere else, turn all links useless, and require excessive re-learning in the community, just because I have an opinion on VK's version names.

As I said, you might find the thought ridiculous right now, but please consider it, should you take over. I'm really not as bad as VK tries to make me look.

I think you might have misunderstood me on this one. When I said take RPCE and run with it I ment from a modders point of view. I unfortunatly have no assembly coding abilities, but thanks for the vote of confidence