RPCE again

[VK]

People, please stop panic!

At first you should not believe a stupid posts about errors, bugs, about removed features.

Test all by your hands

All features, which was in RP 1.08 SE exist and working in RPCE.

About tags, which renamed:
I didn't renamed all tags, only:
LStorm tags - now it's more organized and beautiful (all begin from LStorm).
Nuke tags - now it's more organized and beautiful (all begin from "Nuke").
TUT1 -> THD1 - I get back it in revision.
MousePointers -> MouseCursors, because new format is used.

I will not change LStorm*, Dom*, Nuke* tags in future, because it's looks fine

Yeah, RPCE help at first time had a lot of errors
I already said why: my HDD had broken and I lost a lot of data.
Fortunately, I created backup two days ago.  

BTW, why no one hadn't written to me?:
"Hi VK, I good in English, I want help you to write good tutorials."

Now really only three bugs in RPCE (compared with RP 1.0:
1)AITargetingType
2)NUKE Warhead
3)Triggers SW actions

I uploaded RPCE Help Update 5, which included Map SnapShot tutorial.

[TheMan]

I saw this in the begining, but I dont know why all ppl like bobing and others was complaning on silly stuff, i could play online without reconnection error witch I had always before, every one talk about 1.07b is the most stable version..bullshit this one is most stable of all versions....
And like MadHQ said, no one have right to things like that to CnCVK, olny pd have imo.
We should be happy that he is doing this patch >(

[Bobingabout]

yes, it is the most stable version i've ever used, thats why i'm using it in R:ROTC. the main problem is all the tag changes, and the documentation errors.

there still so much stuff we aren't sure how to use correctly.

[tsactuo]

+1 for the most stable RP version ever created

[Renegade]

I vote for changing that to "Don't Panic!" - to give it that whole "pop culture reference" touch.

Oh and then...I call Bullshit. "Don't believe the stupid posts about bugs, test it yourself!"?? That's got to be the most ridiculous cop-out I've heard in a long, long time. It's akin to "if I don't see it, it doesn't exist".

• If people complain, there's likely an issue. Whether you agree it is an issue doesn't matter if half your userbase thinks it's an issue.
  
• There are still a whole shitload of old issues open in the bugtracker
  
• Many bugs and complains could have been avoided hadn't you decided to rename flags just for fun
  
• We couldn't help you write your documents, because
  
  1. You fell back to last century's offline help format, instead of using the already prepared RockPatch Docs part of ModEnc, and
     
  2. You have a tendency to reveal your changes after you released them upon us
     
• Quit acting like this is new. We complained about your attitude towards testing, your naming scheme, your stubborness all before. Quit pretending this is all a reaction to CE. We are unhappy with the general way this project is going, not just with this particular release.
  

[MadHQ]

I uploaded RPCE Help Update 5, which included Map SnapShot tutorial.

Help update 5...? The download able version is at 8... Is 5 the site? and so could you make it download able, i like being able to not have to get on-line to look at the help docs.

My guess is the download able one isnt the new one as it doesn't have the map thingy.

[blackheartstar]

[*]Many bugs and complains could have been avoided hadn't you decided to rename flags just for fun

Unless I read it wrong the only tag changed for no reason was the TUT1 --> to THD1. Which he seems willing to change back in the next version. Doesnt that null this complaint?

[VK]

Oh and then...I call Bullshit. "Don't believe the stupid posts about bugs, test it yourself!"?? That's got to be the most ridiculous cop-out I've heard in a long, long time. It's akin to "if I don't see it, it doesn't exist".

read here for example: http://forums.renegadeprojects.com/showt...&page=2  Post #13

If people complain, there's likely an issue. Whether you agree it is an issue doesn't matter if half your userbase thinks it's an issue.

thinks... because someone put not right information.

Help update 5...? The download able version is at 8... Is 5 the site? and so could you make it download able, i like being able to not have to get on-line to look at the help docs.

Now update 6 is available

Download here.
(I only replace old RockPatchCEHelp.zip file, so the link the same)

You fell back to last century's offline help format, instead of using the already prepared RockPatch Docs part of ModEnc, and

No. I update ModEnc too.
And why no one go and help me to copy information from RPCE help to ModEnc?

You have a tendency to reveal your changes after you released them upon us

someone should join into RP team as help writer.

Quit acting like this is new. We complained about your attitude towards testing, your naming scheme, your stubborness all before. Quit pretending this is all a reaction to CE. We are unhappy with the general way this project is going, not just with this particular release.

And what is your ideas?

[Renegade]

read here for example: http://forums.renegadeprojects.com/showt...632&page=2 Post #13

Hey, look! One of the problems reported was the user's fault! That invalidates all other complaints!! </sarcasm>

thinks... because someone put not right information.

I am not talking about this single revision.

No. I update ModEnc too.

The help pages on ModEnc are half outdated, half junk. They're practically useless unless you invest half an hour to decrypt them, separate fact from fiction, and make sure they aren't outdated by now.

And why no one go and help me to copy information from RPCE help to ModEnc?

Because it'd mean supporting this tactic?

someone should join into RP team as help writer.

For that, you'd have to write down and release clear, precise information what which flag does and how it works.
...if you already wrote down clearly and precisely what a flag does and how it does that, there's no reason not to just save that text on ModEnc and be done with it - why would we need someone else to paraphrase what was precise and save it in an inaccessible and quickly outdated format?

And what is your ideas?

1. Feature Freeze. Create one bug-free version. Fix what's fixable, disable what's too buggy. Then declare that version a Base Version. Features present in a base version will not be changed anymore in any way, except if a total rewrite is necessary, and even if a total rewrite is necessary, the flag stays the same - that way, mods can code and rest assured "If people have Base Version 1, everything will work, and there won't be any RP-bugs.". That gives them the stability and safety needed to actively develop for RockPatch.
   
2. Use a simple, easy, widely accepted numbering scheme, and stay with it. Something like 1.08.0035 or something, or just names (like linux distributions use). Not shit like 1.10 Rev. #0042 Second Celebration Editions. Crap like that makes it hard to keep track which version is current, and which one you are using. Especially if the version number in the menu just says 1.10 or something.
   
3. Make all versions successors of the previous one. If you release version B, it should be the successor of version A, and the predecessor or version C. Nothing else. (Not like 1.08 SE, or CE, which are both successors of 1.08, but apparently not quite 1.09.) Don't get me wrong: There's nothing against bugfix releases. Just don't make them "real" versions. If 1.10 is fucked, release 1.10.0001 with bugfixes. And nothing else. Save new features and grave changes for 1.11.
   
4. Make available an internal beta, for tests with trusted beta-testers. These can be revisions, release candidates, alphas, betas, I don't care. As long as an independent reviewer had a look at how the patch performs before it gets released. (With a then-sane version number.)
   
5. Update ModEnc correctly and quickly. If you can't or won't, release correct, precise, current data to us directly (not through the offline crap) so we can do it.
   
6. Involve the coders of big RP-using mods, like AG, Speeder and Nighthawk in your planning. Actively ask them what they need. These are the people promoting RockPatch. If they don't like it, there's no need to continue coding.
   
7. Look at the votelist. The under-represented, non-big-mod modders made quite clear what they'd like to see. Give it to them, and they will be much happier and forgiving.
   
8. Look at the wishlist. If it's on the wishlist, at least one person would like to see it. If you only code what you want, people will view RockPatch as nothing more than "VK's mod" - and why would they actively help develop your mod if their own is waiting?
   
9. Update the goddamn bugtracker quickly, actively and precisely. That is the way people keep track of the progress of the bug they reported. How are they supposed to know whether Required/ForbiddenHouses works for custom countries if the bug has been open for almost eight months with no feedback from you? If it's fixed, mark it as such. If it's not fixed, don't just dismiss it. If you're not going to fix it, then mark it as "won't fix" and give a fucking reason. People can't read minds. They rely on the information you give them. If you don't give information, they can't rely on you, and if they can't rely on you, they won't plan with you - and that means not using RockPatch.
   
10. Listen. To. Us. It's like I said last post - if half the people complain, there is likely something wrong. Listen to what we say. Give reasons for your decisions. Be open. Accept the fact that you are not god and not infallible, and that what you like may be the biggest bullcrap ever seen for the rest of the community.
    I'm not trying to say you should quit implementing features you, personally, would like to see. I'm saying quit acting like your decisions are the almighty word of God and unchangeable. If half the people doesn't like an implementation, try to reach a compromise to make most of them happy.
    Same goes for for features. If you announce you'll spend your time working on particular, very obscure, never-previously-mentioned feature, and there's an outcry you should rather spend your time fixing bugs or implementing features that have been high on the votelist for months, then you should think about that argument instead of just deciding "No. I'll do ObscureRockPatchFeatNo55= now". Just balance it out. Half features for the community, half obscure features for you, and everybody will be happy.
    

So there. I've got a ten-point-plan to significantly improve the quality of both RockPatch and it's development cycles. You wanted my ideas, you have them. I am confident I have most others behind me on this one. It's your turn to act.

But don't think we'll miss the irony if you decide to not listen to us telling you to listen to us.

[TheMan]

there are some good points
Bugfix is most important.. and #8, i agree with Renegade, some of your future are very bad, there are very nice ides in the wishlist, i am supriced that they dont exit yet. Plz, look at the wishlist and add new futures from there to

[Bobingabout]

i seem to remember 3rd and 4th weapons...

dunno why its coming to me now, but, there is no documentation on it, so, i presume its not done.

[blackheartstar]

Just glanceing at the votelist and VK does seem to support or atleast be working on alot of the features listed. Here are some examples:

Complete 4th faction logic ---> gets better/closer with every revision

Cloned/Restored Superweapons ---> this release covers alot of ground here with Droppods and ion cannon

NegativePrerequisite to disallow building if the object on the list exists ---> this is done is it not?

Add new veteran/elite abilities that make use of immunities ---> once again this seems to be done?

True Air-to-Air Combat ---> This has been touched on.

Permanent-mind-control weapon, or change owner weapon, or both (each have slightly different applications). ---> Again this is already in? Well as far as the perma mind control anyway.

Thats six from the current wishlist out of twenty three. Considering other things hes been working on along with these I dont think its quite fair to say he ignores the lists, and Im sure theres even more in the wish list that have been touched or completed.

Same goes for for features. If you announce you'll spend your time working on particular, very obscure, never-previously-mentioned feature, and there's an outcry you should rather spend your time fixing bugs or implementing features that have been high on the votelist for months, then you should think about that argument instead of just deciding "No. I'll do ObscureRockPatchFeatNo55= now". Just balance it out. Half features for the community, half obscure features for you, and everybody will be happy.

I just whent back and took a quick look at the features added with 1.08 - 1.08 CE and Im wondering what are these very obscure features you mention? The map snapshot, tut1 to thr1, and logfile I could see but thats three features out of all. Everything else is very useful.

[Renegade]

The very fact that both of you can find lots of already-implemented stuff on the wishlist further enforces my point...all surrounding documents are hopelessly outdated. If a feature was implemented, why is it still on the vote/wishlist?

Which also makes it kinda hard to pinpoint what's actually there and what not, so I can't tell you which obscure features he only talked about and which were implemented. Plus, im purposefully being generic. I am not talking specifically about ObscureRockPatchFeatNo55, I am generally talking about wanted vs. unwanted features. A feature may be as useful as ever for the one using it - if nobody uses it, 'cause nobody wants it, its implementation is a waste of time.

In addition, that "seems to be working" part is also part of the problem. You don't know if he's working on it. You assume so, from some sidenote he made, or some ages-old update on ModEnc. The only real way to know what's being worked on is to wait for it to be released. (And yes, that is an implication that work-in-progress code is being released as completed.)

[blackheartstar]

I am generally talking about wanted vs. unwanted features. A feature may be as useful as ever for the one using it - if nobody uses it, 'cause nobody wants it, its implementation is a waste of time.

By chance have you read through the wishlist recently? What I was getting at is everything hes doing is in there somewhere or on the votelist. He has good coverage of both. Just skimming over it I only found six things he has done not in there.

4th side logic and clone current/enable old superweapons are at the top of the vote list (topped only by 3rd weapon) and thats what he is working on the most. If I was working on this project and read a post directing me to reffer to a community list to get a idea of what people wanted me to work on. Id think your all nuts when that list consisted of thing I finished or was currently working on already
(not saying hes working on everything but the major things are being addressed)

Though your right the pages do need a update / reorganization. Several doubles through out, things that are complete still listed, and such. Like you pointed out I pulled six implemented request out of the vote list and of those six three are complete. Which means people are not paying attention or voteing. Finished request like Add new veteran/elite abilities that make use of immunities, Permanent-mind-control weapon, and NegativePrerequisite should have freed up around twelve votes to place elsewhere. Prefferably on more useful things as they are not doing any good where they are

Also as more cloned and re-enabled superweapons become available that vote should probably be taken down and made more specific.

[Bobingabout]

i think my votes currently want to be for:
Sensors on Buildings - for things like anti-sub navel defences. PD told me it was a really simple hack, since he'd already done it for cloakable buildings. but nobody has mentioned anything about it other than me since CnCVK took over. it might be in there, but if it is, nobody has told me what the tags are.
New Prerequisite System - this includes NegativePrerequisite, AlternatePrerequisite and PrerequisiteMisc##= (AKA PrerequisitePower= clones in [General] Section)
Mutator Clone - currently, there is no way to create a second mutator that creates something other than brutes, that are owned by the firing player.

and, more 4th side logic, all that is really left is whiteboy bug(which PD was working on before he quit, i'm sure CnCVK could do something about this if he asks PD about it), 3rd and 4th inwall gates(which is a low priority) and score screen graphics.(oooh, and 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th etc sides.) since all the ingame logic works, this is 4th on my wishlist, so, i should remove my name from there.