How Do I.......

[~Guest~]

u can lead a horse to water but u can't make it drink, point being by giving him knowledge of this answer, u take away from him learning this answer and many more (in the process of finding this answer)  on his own....

[Bobingabout]

i broke no rules answering his question, its a fairly simple question that i do not find noobish, and i used to have simular problems like this when i was a newbie. i used to ask these kinds of questions all the time. but look at me now, i'm not a noob.

only rule i possibly broke was commandment VI.a, because you spacificly said not to give the answer, but then, whats quoting 2 peoples previous posts and adding a comment from your first 1? ban me if you must, but, helping people is what i try to do. plus my help wasn't very spacific anyway, he'd still have to find out about ramps.

and 4StarGeneral, i don't think he was referencing your post as breaking the rules(ren mentioned how "Nothing needs erasing" after you posted, and didn't say that you broke his instruction), just tmapm, and possibly modder666, although modder666 doesn't answer the question, just stated a probably cause.

[Renegade]

@Latest Guest: Exactly.

Because even if you have given up on "n00bs", I haven't. Your threat was empty because I wasn't self focused. I wasn't going to go along with the plan so I could "look good" for all of you. How selfish that would have been! I was concerned about helping "Guest". If you ask someone for an apple, you don't want them to give you a peach.

What exactly do you think the n00b has gained from your answer, other than one less thing to think about?
Had you shut up, he'd have been forced to actually think about the problem himself. I assume you agree with me that the problem wasn't actually hard to recognize and solve. But instead of letting him make the experience of diagnosing and solving the problem himself, all you did was teaching him that even the most trivial problems don't need an independent thought, as there'll always be some other idiot who'll think for him.

btw, your analogy is flawed: What I'd have done would have been denying him an apple, but telling him there's an apple tree in plain sight, thus ensuring that
a) he learns to hunt for food on his own, instead of depending on others, and
b) he doesn't have just one apple now, but many, and in the future, too.
But nooo, apple dealer tmapm had to jump in and give away an apple, making sure our starving n00b will return to ask for more apples...

Oh, and one more thing: It wasn't a threat, it was an order, from the Administrator and Owner of this forum. If I came to your house and started doing shit you don't like, would you appreciate that? I think not.

@Bobing: You didn't break the rules because your answers were most inaccurate to say the least (more like plain wrong). Had you actually given a correct answer, you'd have broken the rules just as tmapm did. But don't think I don't realize you didn't intend to not break the rules. You just accidently didn't.

And the n00bism didn't lie in the question itself, but in the fact that
a) the user obviously never really looked at his screen, since the tiles are very obviously drawn above the cliffs, clearly indicating they are on a higher level, and
b) obviously never thought about the problem and its causes - otherwise he'd have realized the last action he did before was auto-adjusting the height of tiles, so the problem could be related to height; even if he then still didn't realize the true nature of his problem, he could/should at least have tried out the various height-related tools on the hill to see if he could generate any desirable effect, but instead
c) the user immediately jumped to the conclusion it must be "tiling errors" on the program's part, rather than taking into account it might be a modeling error on the user's part, and came here asking what to do to fix it. Not even what the problem was, just what to do to make the effect go away.
And as if that wasn't enough, he didn't even phrase the question well and fucked up the image code.

[DCoder]

You know, Ren, while I share the "think and learn instead of begging for complete answers" approach, this attitude is quite extreme.

[Renegade]

how so?
Our usual example case, the Damage= flag on weapons, requires a user to at least know English well enough to understand what "Damage" means - in this case, the cause of the problem was right in front of the n00b's eyes - we know it, because it was enough in front of his eyes to post a screenshot.

How could you seriously be of the opinion that he who isn't able to read the rules properly shouldn't mod, but he who can't even distinguish different height levels when they're graphically displayed to him should get support?

Not going to be rude, but "hypocrisy" is the only word that triggers in me.

[DCoder]

I'm talking about the way you communicate with good users. Just cause tmapm or bob have more lenient attitudes, you shouldn't be going around threatening to temp-ban them.

[Nighthawk]

Would a better idea not be to impose some form of restriction on the n00bs themselves, rather than anyone who is willing to attempt helping them.

[tmapm]

I have to say, in my personal experience, I've always asked for helped with a lot of things when I've started. PHP for example. I was writing scripts and I always ran into so many problems. I always would ask someone online that I knew and they helped me everytime by letting me know where my problem was and how to fix. As more time went on, I learned from each problem and solution and started to depend less and less on them until I was able to debug efficiently all by myself. Sure, they gave me the answer, but it isn't that I didn't do the work.

I'm not against someone doing their own work. Yes, I gave him the answer, the solution. But I didn't ask him to send me the map so I could fix it and send it back. THAT is a reliance that isn't good and won't help him learn. In school, if one had trouble with a math question and kept getting the wrong answer, their teacher didn't tell them to look harder at their work (although sometimes, because the student could have been mature enough in math to figure it out if they looked at it again.) No, they pointed out the problem, and showed how to correct the mistake. Or maybe they walked them through step by step (Here is your problem, this is each step you need to take to correct your problem. First...)

You may have a different way of learning that works for you, but don't expect it to work for everybody. I don't care that you disagree with me or even if you twist what I write to "backup" what you think. You can be right, I'll be wrong.

I'm still going to help whoever posts on these boards regardless of whether you want to or not. You can continue to help them learn themselves with silence, and I, with an answer. These are your boards and you have every right to moderate, and enforce the rules regardless of how absurd they may seem to me. If the help I give inspires you to temporary ban me, so be it. And if that is the case, I have a feeling I'll be banned a lot. But I'll be worth it.

[Blade]

While the 'problem' was clearly in front of the 'n00b's' eyes, I don't see how the solution was if the person was unfamiliar with FA2. While its fine to point someone to the online help, that won't be enough if they don't understand the help because of how its worded or the concepts are described. Just because its possible for you to learn from that kind of documentation, doesn't mean everyone can. I'm with tmapm on this one, he didn't spoon feed anyone with anything.

[Renegade]

I'm talking about the way you communicate with good users. Just cause tmapm or bob have more lenient attitudes, you shouldn't be going around threatening to temp-ban them.

If the help I give inspires you to temporary ban me, so be it. And if that is the case, I have a feeling I'll be banned a lot. But I'll be worth it.

My problem was less that you actually helped him, but that you blatantly disregarded a direct administrative order I gave. Not even unintentionally. Directly. Knowing I had told you not to, even mocking me afterwards that you didn't feel threatened by me. And that just leaves one impression with me: You are a liability to the order of this forum. And I'll be damned if I let my own forums be taken over by random users just because you're not afraid to get banned.
I didn't ban you yet, 'cause it's the first time you stand out negatively, and I assume your general community reputation wouldn't be as good if you were a trouble maker. But rest assured, I won't let you undermine my authority. Accept the forum rules, or be banned. Your decision. For me it's just two clicks difference.

I'm still going to help whoever posts on these boards regardless of whether you want to or not.

That sentence just cracks me up

Would a better idea not be to impose some form of restriction on the n00bs themselves, rather than anyone who is willing to attempt helping them.

There actually is: The rules allow for any n00bish post to be deleted right away. I just opted to instead make known to him that the answer was obvious and the problem trivial. But he hasn't visited us since, and tmapm used the chance to start an insurrection or something.

While the 'problem' was clearly in front of the 'n00b's' eyes, I don't see how the solution was if the person was unfamiliar with FA2. While its fine to point someone to the online help, that won't be enough if they don't understand the help because of how its worded or the concepts are described. Just because its possible for you to learn from that kind of documentation, doesn't mean everyone can.

In all of this you are assuming the user actually (tried to) read the documentation - there is no indication of such an act in the original post. Hence my suggestion to [url=http://www.modenc.renegadeprojects.com/RTFM]RTFM[/url].
If he tried to read the manual and didn't get it, that's a whole different issue - if somebody wants to help himself, but can't, there's nothing wrong in helping him help himself. But the user in question showed no such aspirations - he just came here, posted his screenshot, and asked "how do i remove til errors?". No hello, no report what he did before, no indications what he tried yet, nothing. Experience in this very community has taught me there's a high probability this means either
1. This is "his" first attempt to solve this problem - outsourcing it to us, or
2. He just wrote one post and copied it over half the community, hoping to get help somewhere.
The problem is not helping users. If I didn't want users to get help, I wouldn't have this forum. The problem is helping users who use us as a hive mind so they don't have to do the thinking themselves. In the time it took the user to take a screenshot, save it, upload it, and post here, he probably could've found the solution by trial and error - much faster, had he decided to think. Instead, he came here. Which wouldn't have been the worst, had you helped me slowly guide him to finding the solution on his own, encouraging him to act more independently the next time he runs into a problem. But nooo, you guys rather push him right into the toolset, and he doesn't seem too interested in (or at least thankful for tmapm's) answers anyway.

I'm with tmapm on this one, he didn't spoon feed anyone with anything.

Funny thing is, you're actually kinda right there - 'cause he, too, failed to accurately pinpoint the actual "problem" asked about in the original post, and instead went with bobing's "how to complete the cliffs so you can use auto-levels" method. Nevertheless,
"how do i remove til errors?"
"Switch to framework mode (the fancy colored box.) You'll find you're missing a ramp. ie. 0025 (Slope Set Pieces.) [...]"
is "spoonfeeding". Maybe a tea spoon, but definately a spoon. And before you say "no, it isn't", realize this: He didn't just say "you're missing ramps". He even gave him the fucking tileset number. The only thing missing is a graphical step-by-step guide.

[Bobingabout]

thats a lot to read, but, my reaction is "Knowing what you said, my answer was purposly vague". you know me, i can write whole paragraphs for my posts, kinda like your massive ones in this topic.
have you ever spent 10 mins looking for your pen, and then ask someone "wheres my pen" when all the time, it was in your left hand? cos i know i have.(maybe not a pen, but, you know what i mean)

But he hasn't visited us since

maybe he did and didn't like what he saw.

Just because its possible for you to learn from that kind of documentation, doesn't mean everyone can.

i must agree, i can't understand half the tutorials on the revora forums. i write tutorials how i expect to see them, like this 1 http://forums.revora.net/index.php?showtopic=19501

[larosco]

okay i get it. renegade i understand u can stop now, and everybody else plz listen to him.

[Renegade]

Are you the original poster?

[4StarGeneral]

@BobingAbout: Just cause I want to clear this up, and not PM you, since no one seems to read PMs anywho, I know I didn't break any rules, thats why it was INCREDIBLY vague.

@Ren: I mean no disrespect, and yes there was a point to it, but you ARE gonna start to drive people away if you threaten people just for posting harmless answers, ya know?

[Renegade]

And that what would be who, exactly? The people disobeying my orders, or the n00bs I don't want to have here anyway?