SubjectToTrenches - when to apply?

[Renegade]

I'm currently implementing damage forwarding, and came to the point where I had to integrate SubjectToTrenches, when I ran into a question:

Should SubjectToTrenches=no make the game forward the damage to the occupants of any building even if UC.PassThrough is not set (or 0)?

The difference is simple:
If yes, a SubjectToTrenches=no weapon would always damage the occupants of a building (if there are any), even on normal civilian buildings or Battle Bunkers. This would be a grave change in the way UC combat is done, and could be used to alter the British Snipers, for example, to snipe individual occupants through the windows of a city building - on the other hand, if not limited to such specific cases, it sort of damages the whole purpose of occupying a building. UC.DamageMultiplier is at 100% by default - what's the point of occupying civilian buildings if the majority of enemy forces can apply full damage to the occupants anyway?

If no, a SubjectToTrenches=no weapon would only damage the occupants of a building (if there are any), if UC.PassThrough is set to greater than 0 as well, in other words, there would only be passing through when the modder explicitly wants to allow that on a particular building, the only difference would be that the projectile in question overrides the set chance and automatically has 100% chance.
The disadvantage of this solution would be that you could make no general "hit the occupiers" weapon for all UC buildings. If UC.PassThrough is not set or set to 0, nothing will pass through. So a grenade, for example, could easily be lobbed into a trench and kill the occupants there, but throwing it through the window of every UC building would be impossible - unless all UC buildings were PassThrough, which, again, negates the whole purpose of seeking shelter in buildings.

PassThrough was thought up for Trenches, and the naming of the flag reflects that; the latter option is clearly the one my mind originally intended. Nevertheless, the former option does have its merits, and, if used carefully (e.g. only on a sniper) could increase the number of tactical options in urban combat - next to just bombing the shit out of an occupied building, and the near-impossible task of getting an Assaulter close to it, you'd have the option of just letting a specialist take out the occupiers and then taking over the building. Next to sniping, it could be used to implement tear gas, flame throwers and similar weapons. The problem starts once the modder wants weapons to always go straight into trenches, but not always into other buildings. Because then he needs different SubjectToTrenches values when firing on different buildings.

So: What's your opinion? I'm tending to option 2, given that that's what was originally envisioned and that it causes no unexpected behavior in urban combat, but if the majority of people would prefer option 1, I can do that as well.

I will implement this tomorrow one way or another, but if it becomes clear over time the other option is wanted, it's a simple change. So feel free to continue stating your opinion even after the code is submitted and/or the issue is resolved.

And to answer the question even before it comes up: No, I'll not make it optional, and I will not add individual PassThrough values for each weapon. The point of this discussion is clarity on a simple check, not to add more checks. If your solution includes adding more stuff, don't bother posting it.

[Bobingabout]

well... i'd say not to mess with the UC building logic, unless the modder wants to explicitly change it. though, i'm not certain which option that is, so i didn't vote.

[Blade]

Could we not have both? A second option that relies on SubjectToTrenches=yes that gives option 1 behaviour if the modder desires it for a given weapon, otherwise behave as second option. IgnorePassthrough=yes perhaps?

[Renegade]

...
* Renegade slaps Blade for not reading his post

[DCoder]

I'd say default to option 2 and let the modder override at least on a global basis.

* DCoder grins

[Lt Albrecht]

default to #2, so it's off by default and you turn it on. IMO that should be the policy for features, activate where wanted, leave where not.

[Renegade]

Option 2 it is.

[Lt Albrecht]

Also epic feature is epic. I'll test the crap out of this one

[~Guest~]

If there is a code that wont allow projectiles to dont go thru buildings, you could make animated walls(exempel is AR2).

[WoRmINaToR]

Does SubjectToTrenches apply to all UC buildings with a PassThrough= value or only buildings that are identified as trenches? What flag does this, btw? I know IsTrench, but that appears to identify what network of trenches the trench applies to, not necessarily that it is a trench (coding-wise, since obviously something with IsTrench is supposed to be a trench).

Can you clarify what tag actually tells the game "Hey I am a trench"?

[Renegade]

Heh. None. That was the whole point of splitting it up over multiple flags and generalizing them.

• You'll have flags to forward damages to the occupants of an occupied building.
  
• You'll have flags to always hit the occupants of an occupied building.
  
• You'll have flags to support the collapsing and rebuilding of buildings.
  
• You'll have flags to allow moving from one building to an adjacent building.
  
• You'll have flags to allow temporary takeovers of occupiable buildings.
  

Each of these does not require the others to work. You can happily use the PassThrough system without ever using IsTrench in your INI, just as you can make all buildings you want rebuildable. But if you combine them all, you'll have a system of occupiable structures you can traverse, shoot out, take damage in, which can collapse, and which can be raided by the enemy - trenches.

To answer the other part of the question, SubjectToTrenches will be parsed by the UC.PassThrough logic, independent from the existence of structures meant to be trenches by design. It was named that way because, while "SubjectToPassThrough" is probably more correct, "SubjectToTrenches" aligns better with the game's existing flags like SubjectToWalls.

If you have a block like

Code:

SubjectToCliffs=yes
SubjectToElevation=no
SubjectToWalls=no
SubjectToTrenches=no

SubjectToTrenches fits right in, imo.

While it may have a tiny potential for confusion, I'm pretty sure that'll be offset by the fact that, in order to use the system, people will read either the documentation or threads like these, pointing out the usage.

[WoRmINaToR]

okay, so there is no specific way to specify trench vs. UC building, nor is there a need for such specification.

And yes i agree SubjectToTrenches works fine as the name of the tag, especially considering some of the wacky names WW assigned a few of thier less-than-general tags.