DFD: 607 vs. 719, 521 vs. 971

[Renegade]

DFD: Daily Feature Deathmatch

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The Cruel Fight For Implementation

This is a Daily Feature Deathmatch post. If you are unfamiliar with the background of this event, please read the announcement and the schedule.

Fight 1

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[0000607] Enable Storage= on buildings. vs. [0000719] Start game with Construction Yard

Fight 2

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[0000521] Aloow editing of where sides appear in the select menu vs. [0000971] Different paradrop planes for sides

By the end of the 48 hour period, two of these issues will be suspended, while the other two move on to the next round.
Remember that the coders will not take part in the discussion, so make your arguments complete, concise and convincing - when it's over, it's over.

Part of that is clearly marking what outcome you support for which issue.
There should be no ambiguity in the issue you're talking about, and it should be clear what outcome you support. Feel free to put your stance in bold, and use simple terminology like "kill #69" or "I want #42 to survive".
A decision will be made either way, so a lack of discussion will not cause all issues to live.

Be friendly, be civil, be logical.
You are allowed to try to deconstruct the arguments of those arguing against your candidate, but remember that they don't make the call - there is really no point in getting personal.

The discussion should be contained in this thread, argumentations elsewhere will be ignored, but you are allowed to transfer and adapt points made elsewhere in the past.

We want a good, clean fight.
Let's get it on!

End: ~ 19:00, 15.07.2010.

[MRMIdAS]

[0000607] seems to be a more useful feature, and can go into the "re-enabled TS logic" section, helpful for TS, RA1 and TD total conversions too.

[0000521] is my issue, and, as said on the bugtracker, it can be achieved by re-ordering the country list, which breaks loadscreens and load messages and may break other stuff too. this would allow for re-ordering of countries by faction, without disrupting other hardcoded stuff.

[Black Shadow 750]

New side logic allows 521 to be done by re-ordering the country list without breaking loadscreens and load messages does it not?

[Blade]

I'd support reenabling storage purely because it will be a more popular logic to be implemented in mods that look to replicate RA1 or TD/TS feel of play. Hence kill 719 even though I don't believe it can be done with map scripts since player@x I don't believe works for all the components needed to make it.

I support re-ordering of the country list without changing the actual order in rulesmd.ini which makes it a pain to move all the original sides around and you have to fix up all the single player missions that need to know the country for a trigger since all the normal countries get bumped up. I don't believe new side logic allows reordering the list already, correct me if I'm wrong.

[MRMIdAS]

New side logic allows 521 to be done by re-ordering the country list without breaking loadscreens and load messages does it not?

kind of, you have to either re-state all the loadscreens and messages, or re-edit the messages, which can get confusing.

it also breaks campaign, apparently.

[Darkstorm]

I am definitely for storage on buildings, it just seems a lot more useful and better than a feature that is just for pure laziness to deploy a conyard.

Now the other 2 are odd, because I have more use for the paradrop plane feature but I still think that as a whole, reordering countries would be a lot more useful to other modders.

[Gangster]

[0000607] and [0000971] they are usefull to me. vote.

[Beowulf]

Kill #719. This can be replicated with triggers and it's not even that useful of a function. There are serious flaws like maps where you can't deploy your MCV right away. That alone is enough to make this feature a complete waste of everyone's fucking time. #607 is much, much better so long as it doesn't become the default.

The second one is a bit tougher. #521 is a good feature, but can be done fairly easily through clever manipulation of the current setup. Even doable without Ares so I don't honestly see much point except for making shit easier on lazy people. As such, kill #521. #971 isn't a whole lot better though, but at least it allows for some customization among sides, which is a more worthy effort.

[reaperrr]

Fight 1:
Like others said already, #607 would be useful for any C&C1/RA1/TS total conversion or any mod that wants to use silos. #719 doesn't sound nearly as useful and can create quite a few problems.
Kill #719.
Support #607.

Fight 2:
This one's difficult, both can be useful, but neither sounds like a must-have to me. #521 might save modders some hassle, but #971 becomes more useful the more different the sides are. Having Allies and Soviets use the same plane is awkward enough, but what when it's aliens vs. humans? Do we want those aliens drop from a C-130? I don't.
So kill #521.
Support #971.

[Blade]

Reordering the side list breaks any single player map (including custom ones) that uses a trigger or event relating to sides after where you rearranged things. This means that even if you correct the existing maps, you won't be able to fix random custom ones a player might want to use with your mod. On the other hand, I guess someone could come up with a script that takes the new ordering of sides and fixes existing maps automatically when run through it.

[AlexB]

Fight 1
Auto-Deploying would only help in one possible scenario: Preventing the player from leaving the initial position -- and only if MCV repack is off or the Con Yard doesn't have UndeploysInto= set. The placement problems could surely be overcome, as long as the start position isn't just a hilly field of trees and rocks. (While this is easily solvable for the mod's own maps, this can't be guaranteed for custom maps at all.)

While I don't like the additional micromanagement Storage= requires, it is a strategic addition to the game, as the resource Money can be blown to hell just like Power. Super rich players will be more vulnerable to lose credits if they aren't protected properly and building silos takes up more space, time and money.

I'm not fond of the idea to have Slave Miners return to some building to unload. They already are buildings when deployed and the Storage counter would be global for a player, thus the miner wouldn't hold it itself. And if the deployed miner would have Storage, then undeploying it would remove global Storage from the player which would possibly lead to lost money. But nonetheless, Storage.

Fight 2
Being able to move items in the selection list would be a nice little feature, as it is difficult to add an Allied and a Soviet country right now and putting it to the others of the same side. It should not be too hard to do.

Paradrop planes are good, but not that good. And I predict they won't be in the next round anyway. Thus: Country sort order.

[Renegade]

Fight 1

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I concur with Beowulf and reaperrr that starting with ConYards can lead to problems on maps where immediate deploying is not possible; while, in general, one usually has enough room to immediately deploy, there is nothing mandating that, and an algorithm to automatically seek the closest usable position to the starting point, independent from potentially being complex to implement, would inevitably draw scorn from the players, because opponents could "randomly" end up in strategically better positions than they should have been in by map design.

Given that no one supported #719 anyway, I think we can all agree #607 should proceed to the next round.

Kill #719
Support #607

Fight 2

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In this case, I will follow reaperrr's argumentation. While I hear Blade's point, quite frankly, I just don't see the big advantage.
#971 allows the modder to have a clear, unique look & feel for each of his sides, which, as reaperrr pointed out, becomes more important the more the side design strays from the stock countries.
#521 allows me to...move country x up three slots?

I just don't see it. How many players even notice a list order? If I go into the game thinking "today, I'll be Cuba", I don't dissect the list, mentally walk through the categories, and ultimately select my country of choice. I just skim over the list and select Cuba when I see it, no matter if it's at the top, the bottom, or the middle.
Sure, maybe, at some point, someone might wonder "hey...why is alien country B sorted among the Allied earthlings?", but...what does it matter?
It's a one-second selection before the game, and once the player noticed where the country is, it's not longer an issue.
It's not like the player will keep wondering throughout the entire game "why is the countries list ordered that way?".

I understand that it would be neater if the countries list were always in order. But in overall impact on the game, I think side-specific paradrop-planes are more important than country-specific list indices. A wrong list-index is noticed once before the game, and then forgotten - a nonsensical paradrop-plane disturbs the suspension of disbelief every single time a player calls a paradrop.

Kill #521
Support #971

[Ultimately, of course, both are minor issues, and given that Alex deems it easy to do, I have no doubt country-list-indices will slip in at some point either way.]

P.S.: @reaperrr: Wouldn't be the first aliens using earthly airplanes, though...

[DCoder]

What Ren said.

[Renegade]

Result:
[0000719] Start game with Construction Yard and [0000521] Aloow editing of where sides appear in the select menu die.