Renegade
18.08.2010, 06:48:18
Fight 1
This one is pretty simple - #1114 is a minor graphical feature, whereas #603 makes guns on buildings a whole lot more flexible.
Plus, #1114 only exists because its original request was so utterly crappy that I spun a few things off to give the community a chance to vet them independently.
Kill: #1114
Support: #603
Fight 2
What baffles me most about this Fight is mt.'s post, to be honest.
The "cameos can be done quickly" myth was tried as an argumentation in the original DFD, and failed.
It was tried in the Ultimate Smackdown, and failed.
How many times must an argumentation fail for you to realize it's not working, and you should try a different one?
I have released a dual-language mod before. I am telling you: You are wrong. It is a big deal. Accept it or not, making duplicate cameos for dozens of units sucks hard, and would be unnecessary hadn't some numbnut at Westwood disabled text display over cameos.
Besides, it's not just a question of translation, it's also a question of rapid development and beta-testing. With cameo text as a feature, I can just drop a single blank cameo in the mod, set all units without cameos to that, and use the cameo text feature to identify them.
Sure, they're missing cameos, but at least my beta-testers can distinguish between the Cock Monster of Doom and the Vagina Mob without having to hover over every single cameo to figure out what is what.
Plus, as Nighthawk pointed out: As soon as you deviate from Westwood's certified RA2 cameo style, your precious SHP Editor's text feature is worth shit anyway, and all your fancy calculations of how quick cameo retexting supposedly is are invalid.
I'm not saying #601 is a bad request. It's perfectly fine. Temporary side change - alright. Reasonable idea.
But let's look at the usage cases given, really...
You can have it as a "bribe" for a spy,
...or you could give the spy multiple mind control. The only difference is the timer.
you can have it as a Superweapon,
...like the Psychic Dominator. The only difference is the timer.
it can be an alternative to chaos,
...this one is just bullshit. How is targeted side change to your own side the same as making the unit go insane?
it can be an alternative to mind control.
And here we have the exact issue: It is mind control. The only difference is the timer.
You can put it on psychic towers to balance them taking out the enemy force instantly.
Yeah. It totally makes sense to have the mind control towers not do mind control anymore.
Or to have Yuri Clones have indefinite mind control, have Yuri have indefinite mind control, have Masterminds have indefinite mind control, but Psychic Towers magically don't have indefinite mind control. Hell, they don't even have "Mind Control" anymore. They have "Alternative Side Change Logic".
Seriously. It sounds like Mind Control for vegetarians or something.
"I can't believe it's not Mind Control!"
Even it can be for something like the propaganda truck or so, a truck that already has a voxel in Yuri's revenge and was in a mission.
Yeah. Or you could give the Propaganda Truck
Or a mutation cannon that mutates them into Insurgents.
Or a chaos gun, to make them rebel.
Or whatever. It's not like there is absolutely no way to use the Propaganda Truck, unless Alternative Temporary Side Change Logic is implemented.
#601 on the other hand allows to perfectly recreate the Deviator from WW's Dune games, for example.
#336 allows to perfectly recreate the cameos from WW's Tiberian Sun games, for example.
Either way, this is the first "good" argument I heard -
Raise your hands, who all is doing a Dune mod? Who's been desperately waiting to clone the Deviator?
I believe you get my point. Yes, you are correct - this logic would enable modders to perfectly clone Dune's Deviator. But it's not like "cloning Dune's Deviator" is the holy grail of YR modding and people have been trying for years to do this.
could be used with "leaflet drop" type superweapons,
...like the Psychic Dominator. With a leaflet drop animation. The only difference is the timer.
or alongside the proposed "morale system"
That's a completely empty phrase. I can just as well say "cameo text can be used alongside the NOSTR system".
It's inherently true. Both systems would be in Ares, so of course they could be used in tandem.
Without further specification of how exactly Vegan Mind Control would improve the Morale System in particular, there is no argument here.
an interest gameplay feature I suppose
Can you hear the excitement screaming out of the "I suppose"?
The situation here is simple: Hippie Mind Control is a gameplay feature, cameo text is a development feature. Cameo text can be painted on, but the more you have to do it, the more annoying it is. Temporary Tofu Mind Control can't be faked, but other than being temporary, it's no different from Ares's Permanent Mind Control. You prefer more options in gameplay over more options in development, so you vote for Soy Mind Control.
That's alright. That's your choice.
But I, personally, did not find your proposed usage cases convincing enough to kill a feature as helpful and time-saving as cameo text.
Besides, let's be honest here: As soon as we introduce Mind Control 2: Return of the Mind Control, you and the rest of the community will expect every feature of normal Mind Control to work on Margarine Mind Control as well. Be it DeMindControl, be it Mind Control Priorities, be it whatever - if Mind Control has it, somebody will come and request it for Ersatz Mind Control.
And that's not even considering the interaction between Vanilla Mind Control and Chocolate Mind Control.
If you have Mind Controlled units, and you fire an Analogue Mind Control weapon on them, what happens?
What happens when you mind control temporarily changed units, and the timer runs out?
Are temporarily changed units immune to Mind Control or not?
Does immunity to Mind Control protect against Mind Control Plus?
Do we need another new flag, ImmuneToAlmostButNotQuiteDeluxeExtendedMindControl?
The fact of the matter is, even if I were convinced by your usage cases, and even if I didn't think cameo text would be a very helpful development feature, the host of unnecessary compatibility issues and inevitable equalization requests alone would be worth rejecting #601.
If this kind of feature is truly desired, and my co-judges share my opinion about #601 and kill it, then somebody can go and submit a feature request for timed Mind Control, which can be independently vetted by the community.
And if the community agrees "yes, we'd like to have the option to have mind control links automatically be severed after x frames", then that's alright.
But introducing a whole new ownership change system, just to have Mind Control + Countdown, is, in my opinion, rather silly and not worth the effort.
Kill: #601
Support: #336
This one is pretty simple - #1114 is a minor graphical feature, whereas #603 makes guns on buildings a whole lot more flexible.
Plus, #1114 only exists because its original request was so utterly crappy that I spun a few things off to give the community a chance to vet them independently.
Kill: #1114
Support: #603
Fight 2
What baffles me most about this Fight is mt.'s post, to be honest.
The "cameos can be done quickly" myth was tried as an argumentation in the original DFD, and failed.
It was tried in the Ultimate Smackdown, and failed.
How many times must an argumentation fail for you to realize it's not working, and you should try a different one?
I have released a dual-language mod before. I am telling you: You are wrong. It is a big deal. Accept it or not, making duplicate cameos for dozens of units sucks hard, and would be unnecessary hadn't some numbnut at Westwood disabled text display over cameos.
Besides, it's not just a question of translation, it's also a question of rapid development and beta-testing. With cameo text as a feature, I can just drop a single blank cameo in the mod, set all units without cameos to that, and use the cameo text feature to identify them.
Sure, they're missing cameos, but at least my beta-testers can distinguish between the Cock Monster of Doom and the Vagina Mob without having to hover over every single cameo to figure out what is what.
Plus, as Nighthawk pointed out: As soon as you deviate from Westwood's certified RA2 cameo style, your precious SHP Editor's text feature is worth shit anyway, and all your fancy calculations of how quick cameo retexting supposedly is are invalid.
I'm not saying #601 is a bad request. It's perfectly fine. Temporary side change - alright. Reasonable idea.
But let's look at the usage cases given, really...
You can have it as a "bribe" for a spy,
...or you could give the spy multiple mind control. The only difference is the timer.
you can have it as a Superweapon,
...like the Psychic Dominator. The only difference is the timer.
it can be an alternative to chaos,
...this one is just bullshit. How is targeted side change to your own side the same as making the unit go insane?
it can be an alternative to mind control.
And here we have the exact issue: It is mind control. The only difference is the timer.
You can put it on psychic towers to balance them taking out the enemy force instantly.
Yeah. It totally makes sense to have the mind control towers not do mind control anymore.
Or to have Yuri Clones have indefinite mind control, have Yuri have indefinite mind control, have Masterminds have indefinite mind control, but Psychic Towers magically don't have indefinite mind control. Hell, they don't even have "Mind Control" anymore. They have "Alternative Side Change Logic".
Seriously. It sounds like Mind Control for vegetarians or something.
"I can't believe it's not Mind Control!"
Even it can be for something like the propaganda truck or so, a truck that already has a voxel in Yuri's revenge and was in a mission.
Yeah. Or you could give the Propaganda Truck
InfiniteMindControl.Or a mutation cannon that mutates them into Insurgents.
Or a chaos gun, to make them rebel.
Or whatever. It's not like there is absolutely no way to use the Propaganda Truck, unless Alternative Temporary Side Change Logic is implemented.
#601 on the other hand allows to perfectly recreate the Deviator from WW's Dune games, for example.
#336 allows to perfectly recreate the cameos from WW's Tiberian Sun games, for example.
Either way, this is the first "good" argument I heard -
Quote:The Ordos have access to the Deviator - a specialized tank firing a nerve gas that switches the allegiance of targeted units to Ordos for a limited period of time.Alright. So this logic would enable the modding world to clone Dune's Deviator.
Raise your hands, who all is doing a Dune mod? Who's been desperately waiting to clone the Deviator?
I believe you get my point. Yes, you are correct - this logic would enable modders to perfectly clone Dune's Deviator. But it's not like "cloning Dune's Deviator" is the holy grail of YR modding and people have been trying for years to do this.
could be used with "leaflet drop" type superweapons,
...like the Psychic Dominator. With a leaflet drop animation. The only difference is the timer.
or alongside the proposed "morale system"
That's a completely empty phrase. I can just as well say "cameo text can be used alongside the NOSTR system".
It's inherently true. Both systems would be in Ares, so of course they could be used in tandem.
Without further specification of how exactly Vegan Mind Control would improve the Morale System in particular, there is no argument here.
an interest gameplay feature I suppose
Can you hear the excitement screaming out of the "I suppose"?
The situation here is simple: Hippie Mind Control is a gameplay feature, cameo text is a development feature. Cameo text can be painted on, but the more you have to do it, the more annoying it is. Temporary Tofu Mind Control can't be faked, but other than being temporary, it's no different from Ares's Permanent Mind Control. You prefer more options in gameplay over more options in development, so you vote for Soy Mind Control.
That's alright. That's your choice.
But I, personally, did not find your proposed usage cases convincing enough to kill a feature as helpful and time-saving as cameo text.
Besides, let's be honest here: As soon as we introduce Mind Control 2: Return of the Mind Control, you and the rest of the community will expect every feature of normal Mind Control to work on Margarine Mind Control as well. Be it DeMindControl, be it Mind Control Priorities, be it whatever - if Mind Control has it, somebody will come and request it for Ersatz Mind Control.
And that's not even considering the interaction between Vanilla Mind Control and Chocolate Mind Control.
If you have Mind Controlled units, and you fire an Analogue Mind Control weapon on them, what happens?
What happens when you mind control temporarily changed units, and the timer runs out?
Are temporarily changed units immune to Mind Control or not?
Does immunity to Mind Control protect against Mind Control Plus?
Do we need another new flag, ImmuneToAlmostButNotQuiteDeluxeExtendedMindControl?
The fact of the matter is, even if I were convinced by your usage cases, and even if I didn't think cameo text would be a very helpful development feature, the host of unnecessary compatibility issues and inevitable equalization requests alone would be worth rejecting #601.
If this kind of feature is truly desired, and my co-judges share my opinion about #601 and kill it, then somebody can go and submit a feature request for timed Mind Control, which can be independently vetted by the community.
And if the community agrees "yes, we'd like to have the option to have mind control links automatically be severed after x frames", then that's alright.
But introducing a whole new ownership change system, just to have Mind Control + Countdown, is, in my opinion, rather silly and not worth the effort.
Kill: #601
Support: #336
Forum Rules
(01.06.2011, 05:43:25)kenosis Wrote: Oh damn don't be disgraced again!
(25.06.2011, 20:42:59)Nighthawk Wrote: The proverbial bearded omni-bug may be dead, but the containment campaign is still being waged in the desert.