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+--- Thread: Rock Patch 1.10 development thread (/showthread.php?tid=741)
RE: Rock Patch 1.10 development thread - VK - 27.04.2007
Quote:yes indeed, sorry for not crediting him, but really this thread is hilariousNobody don't ask you about your comments about this thread.
In some ways I wish this thread would be locked/deleted but another part makes me want to
RE: Rock Patch 1.10 development thread - Renegade - 27.04.2007
Mevitar Wrote:And on the next episode of RTB soap opera Renegade is going to say he hates VK, while VK will say that this is all bullshitCan we have guest stars? I'm for Paris Hilton and Nicole Richie, they'd fit right in.
The action, the drama, the thrill!!
Don't miss the next episode!!
Mevitar Wrote:Now seriously, i'm also fed up with what's going on on this forum and i also think VK should use the old numeric system, but hey:The problem is not the word "wacky". VK has edited that page multiple times, if that was his problem, it'd have been out of the page for weeks.
1) RTB Patch called either way is still the same RTB Patch
2) who really cares? i mean: is it REALLY worth all this argues?
Yeah, i know, it's for newcomers to know which version of the patch was earlier, so i don't have anything about giving a "translation" of "Wacky VK Designation" to old numerical system, the problem is with the word Wacky.
The problem is that he can't accept that he can't dominate me like the rest of you.
Mevitar Wrote:to Renegade:I think you still don't get the situation either. I'm not doing much. I just don't delete stuff on VK's demands. That's totally legitimate behavior. None of the people here, including you, would delete stuff on their websites if I came along and said "You must delete that for I don't like it."
I know you may be pissed off by VK's attitude, but this doesn't mean YOU have to piss off others too. If VK really was acting that bad, you're not acting better than him now. If this wasn't your forum you'd probably been banned already.
And please, don't try to explain yourself or tell me that i'm dumb or something. I'm fed up with all this, and i see i'm not alone.
Yet you expect me to do that just because VK demands it? How is my site and my opinion worth less than yours or anybody else's here?
MadHQ Wrote:[Most of his post]I'll take your lack of responses to my retorts as an indication that you realized how stupid your post was.
MadHQ Wrote:And I just have to say this forum or network or what ever you wanna call it has some bad admin control. Why I say this is because some one put my "aka" to "My an idiot"now that right there is pretty funny, because who ever put that there doesn't know grammar for shit.
This is hilarious on so many levels.
CnCVK Wrote:[...]
First of all the current problem:
that King Ren named this page as "traditional'
Newbies will see think that this official, but another version system.
However I don't find anything about non-official version on King Ren's page.
- You do realize how ridiculous it is to call me "King Ren" while I'm talking of consent within the community, and you try to reign as God's King and dictate my actions, right?
- Yes. Because if one is labeled "official", it makes totally sense to think the one not labeled "official" is official as well. How could I not see the logic?
- It clearly says "This numbering scheme is not endorsed by VK" - how could it be official if you don't like it? It's simple logic...
...although that may be the problem.
CnCVK Wrote:Of course I will remove link to King Ren's page.Yes, my Lord...if it offends you, I shall of course remove it at once! *bows*
You (King Ren) should rename it to non-official, write with big letters "non-official" and remove all things, which offend me.
Nothing more.
...then again, MadHQ said you can't force me to do anything?
Bobingabout Wrote:you should probably split most of the convo from post #10.While, on one level, I agree with you, it was VK, after all, leading the thread to the current topic, and it is the discussion about the future of 1.10. So it is on topic just as much as it is off topic. Since I am a supporter of thread evolution, I'll not change anything for not. There's no 1.10 development to talk about right now anyway.
the argument has nothing to do with 1.10 development, maybe name the split "VK's coding strike" or something.
Bobingabout Wrote:ermWait, let me get this straight...at the beginning of the post, you say the numbering makes no sense...
i don't agree with the numbering system on the version page, a simple order will do, and even if you insist on numbers, the ones on the page make absolutly no sense at all. [...]
Bobingabout Wrote:but VK did say "RPCE is not 1.09", so, if we are doing 1.10 now, where is 1.09? RPCE IS 1.09, cncvk just changed his mind, and if you want to give RPCE74 a number, it's probably 1.09 and a half. which would be 1.09.5, but, can't have a decimal there....only to then use my exact reasoning?
[...]
CnCVK Wrote:Don't like -don't use.Out of interest...what's your character's level on the "Hypocrisy" skill?
If you practised what you preach, we wouldn't have this discussion...
gamemate Wrote:First off I am no admin, I am staff member at Revora...Actually, seeing your avatar now, I realize I was thinking of Godwin, not of you. In my defense, it was 3 o' clock in the morning, and I was replying to three different people at once...it's easy to mix up two nicks starting with "G" there.
I am not going to argue with Renegade, there is no point. There is only one right way and that is the Renegades way, anything else is wrong.
And yes I am one of the most arrogant, stupid and brainless people around. And proud of it
Please accept my sincere apologies...it was an honest mistake, and that is not the opinion I have of you.
AlliedG Wrote:[...]Actually, that's not quite true...the thing is, back in the day, people were focusing on the .tlbs, not the exe. Hence pd's iconic words "Who needs TLB files to modify the game?". In other words, it's not that nobody could do it, it's that nobody tried. (At least not publically or on a large scale.)
In the end VK does have power over us because none of us can decompile and modify it properly, if it was so easy, it would have done during deezire's day and until PD and VK done, the most we could do was exe file and hex edit.[...]
AlliedG Wrote:yes indeed, sorry for not crediting him, but really this thread is hilariousIn a bittersweet way, yes...on one hand, this argument is blown way out of proportions, ensuring hilarity, on the other hand, it's just sad and disgusting how obedient and submissive everybody is towards VK.
CnCVK Wrote:Nobody don't ask you about your comments about this thread.Yeah, we know...you don't like personal opinions. We get it. Now leave him alone. The very fact that you still insist on having the authority to command deletions on random website is contributing a great deal to the hilarity. If you behaved like a normal human being, there'd be no discussion for him to comment on.
RE: Rock Patch 1.10 development thread - Bobingabout - 27.04.2007
Renegade Wrote:but the numbering system on that page places 1.08SE as 1.09, PRCE as 1.10, and RPCE74 as 1.11, making 1.10 1.12, which is the part that makes no sence.Bobingabout Wrote:ermWait, let me get this straight...at the beginning of the post, you say the numbering makes no sense...
i don't agree with the numbering system on the version page, a simple order will do, and even if you insist on numbers, the ones on the page make absolutly no sense at all. [...]
Bobingabout Wrote:but VK did say "RPCE is not 1.09", so, if we are doing 1.10 now, where is 1.09? RPCE IS 1.09, cncvk just changed his mind, and if you want to give RPCE74 a number, it's probably 1.09 and a half. which would be 1.09.5, but, can't have a decimal there....only to then use my exact reasoning?
[...]
RE: Rock Patch 1.10 development thread - Nighthawk - 27.04.2007
Ren explained earlier that it was mapped to 1.09 because 1.08 SE was the start of a new development cycle. If I can find the post I'll quote it.
Edit: Found it:
Renegade Wrote:1. What would that make 1.08 SE #0029? 1.08bb? 1.08c? It can't be c, it's still 1.08 SE, and 1.08 SE is like 1.08b, according to your logic? See the problem? Welcome to the world of VK's naming scheme.
2. Just because it's named "Second Edition" doesn't automatically mean it cannot be a standalone version. Think of Windows 98 SE. The differences to Win 98 were so grave that there was stuff that had 98 SE as a minimum requirement. So quit argumenting 1.08 SE must be 1.08 simply because it carries "1.08" in the title. By that logic, "1.10" is the second version released after "1.08". I don't know about you, but by my count, that doesn't quite work. Especially not if CE is not 1.09. But hey, VK's versioning scheme is "very clear and right", right?
RE: Rock Patch 1.10 development thread - Renegade - 27.04.2007
Bobingabout Wrote:but the numbering system on that page places 1.08SE as 1.09, PRCE as 1.10, and RPCE74 as 1.11, making 1.10 1.12, which is the part that makes no sence.No - it's the same logic: CE is not 1.09.
Only that I consider the fact that SE had four sub-versions and a new name reason enough to see 1.08 SE as a standalone version, while you just say "1.08 and 1.08 SE are 1.08, 1.10 is 1.10, but RPCE is not 1.09 - THAT DOESN'T MAKE ANY SENSE."
And, although I'm tired of repeating myself over and over and over and over again, let me point out, once again, the Notes section on RockPatch:Versions, which, quite clearly, points out that I was aware that problem arising, if VK actually released 1.10 as 1.10, and that the numbers would possibly have to be re-ordered in order to line up with VK's occasional numbered release.
iow: You are saying the same as I do. I'm just already past the "WTF? This doesn't make sense?!" stage, while you are still trying to show VK it doesn't make sense.
Once you realize VK isn't open to logic, you'll see that, if CE is not 1.09, there are only two possibilites: Make the version after CE, but before 1.10, 1.09, which would turn CE74 into 1.09, and the entire CE series into the third installment of 1.08, or order it as I did - with 1.08 SE as 1.09, counting from there.
But, as I mentioned, it'll all have to be re-ordered if 1.10 gets released anyway, and we'll then see which magical number we have to pull out of our collective ass to explain a version without number on one hand, and a missing number in the counting on the other.
RE: Rock Patch 1.10 development thread - Marshall - 27.04.2007
Or 1.08SE could be thought of as 2.00
CE -> 2.01
CE74 -> 2.02
1.10 -> 2.03
That would be a lot clearer to understand.
RE: Rock Patch 1.10 development thread - Djohe from PPM - 27.04.2007
I can actually draw a parallell here:
Where is that flash animation on Newgrounds when I need it, oh wait here it is: http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/337524
C&CVK the evil master of the wierd naming of version/revision of RockPatch (luckily it does not apply to ETS and hope it never will)
He took over after PD (no his code aint shity, hes just not as good as you on some points, it does not have to mean his code is shit)
and he does not listen to his followers suggestions or naming demands.
This sounds like the whole Electronic Arts story all over again.
Electronic Arts bought Westwood like C&CVK took over after PD (yes I know its not the same thing)
EA released Redalert2/Generals premature. C&CVK wants us to bug test it (PD actually tested his coding and some bugs only slipped by)
There is another point on this one EA's Redalert2 does not look like the one Westwood visioned it would be like in the Pre Release Screenshots.
Gernerals is not even the C&C Story (as in GDI vs NOD or Soviet vs Allies)
EA does not listen to its followers (I dont think so) and changes stuff how they want it too look (just look at the whole C&C3 Tiberium Wars). C&CVK does not listen to suggestions and changes stuff like the CSF names from TUT1 to THD1 or whatever it was and tag/code names in rulesmd.ini and changes how the Nuke works. I did accept the 1.08SE name but after that it went downwards!
The last point: C&C3 Tiberium Wars may be a new game and RPCE74 or whatever its called may contain new features but they both contain the same "BULLSHIT as C&CVK calls it". I Hate several things in C&C3 if you look at this topic over at PPM for those who are members there:
http://www.ppmsite.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=14578
And the same things go for C&CVK's naming system and renaming of stuff and backwards compability and so on.
C&CVK get over it or I will start to call you "New Electronic Arts". You should make some compromises god damn it!
RE: Rock Patch 1.10 development thread - AlliedG - 27.04.2007
I wouldn't say I agree with VK, you know me in beginning I whine, but in the end I realised only one guy is doing this, so why complain, I can lol at the responses.
I find VK misunderstands us a lot. Like I said this thread should be deleted/locked, because it has lots of spam, but I find it too funny to be locked lol.
If anything this thread is probably just one minor misunderstanding resulting in a lot of
but in the end its 
RE: Rock Patch 1.10 development thread - blackheartstar - 27.04.2007
Renegade Wrote:AlliedG Wrote:yes indeed, sorry for not crediting him, but really this thread is hilariousit's just sad and disgusting how obedient and submissive everybody is towards VK.
Who exactly is being obedient and/or submissive? You have brought this up several times. This is about a name/number scheme of a patch he is developing and somebody publicly down playing him, his work, and his order of release.
I see no one here bending to CNCVKs will. Infact it seems that most dissagree with him, but do not care all that much what he calls it in the end. That is except for you with your own brand of slander/propaganda.
The patch being paused though is his bad in an attempt to make "you" bend to his will as he probably sees no other way. Im doulting you even edit Yuri much if at all anymore so you really could not care less if it is paused or not.
It is an opinion based argument no one can be factualy right/wrong.
RE: Rock Patch 1.10 development thread - /-\G@/\/\ - 27.04.2007
Ren you shit. You have gone waaay to far with this. Move Rock Patch to a other forum please. Then this site will die becuse it aint shit without RP.
Even if you own this site you should not act like a fucking dictator!
RE: Rock Patch 1.10 development thread - Marshall - 28.04.2007
blackheartstar Wrote:This is about a name/number schemeActually, it's not about that, as I think many people have misunderstood and as I'm sure Renegade will shortly reiterate...
Guest Wrote:Then this site will die becuse it aint shit without RPModEnc alone would keep this site alive, not to mention the other community members who support it with their work, knowledge and projects.
RE: Rock Patch 1.10 development thread - Renegade - 28.04.2007
blackheartstar Wrote:Who exactly is being obedient and/or submissive? You have brought this up several times.You yourself, TheMan, MadHQ, Mevitar, /-\G@/\/\...
...because as much as you all claim to despise VK for doing this, you all act exactly as he wishes: You attack me, after he stopped the patch. You all live in fear he might stop coding RockPatch and would do anything for him to continue, no matter who's right and who's wrong.
blackheartstar Wrote:This is about a name/number scheme of a patch he is developing and somebody publicly down playing him, his work, and his order of release.Come again? No it isn't. VK never mentioned me "down playing" him, his work, or anything. He quite clearly stated this was only about the damn Versions page, only to later advise people to just ignore stuff they don't like.
- He demands I delete stuff he doesn't like, for purely that reason, or wants to dictate how it looks like if he allows it to live.
- I refused to delete stuff just because some random guy on the internet demands it.
That and only that is what this is about. Everything else is just padding.
blackheartstar Wrote:I see no one here bending to CNCVKs will. Infact it seems that most dissagree with him, but do not care all that much what he calls it in the end. That is except for you with your own brand of slander/propaganda.Riiight...because resisting his attempts at blackmail are slander and propaganda. You don't even see anymore how much he influences you, do you? And you wonder who I call obedient?
blackheartstar Wrote:The patch being paused though is his bad in an attempt to make "you" bend to his will as he probably sees no other way. Im doulting you even edit Yuri much if at all anymore so you really could not care less if it is paused or not.Again, someone who obviously failed RockPatch History.
Go to ModEnc, check RP's history a little. See who was the one who fought for RockPatch discussion to continue when DZ's henchmen tried to kill it on the spot.
Don't you think if I didn't care for RockPatch, I'd have long cut this short, given VK the finger, and told him I'd rather burn in hell than to find a compromise?
I love RockPatch. That is the reason why I extensively supported it in the past, why I hate to see what VK turned it into, why I fight for it to return to its old glory rather than sinking deeper into meaninglessness, and why I keep this discussion going in hopes that VK finally realizes wtf he is doing and tries to cooperate instead of fighting.
I want RockPatch to continue. But even my patience has limits. I have accepted a whole lot of weird antics from VK in the past few months, but I am not going to give up control of my own server to an internet madman because he blackmails the community.
As much as you might find this term too heavy at the moment: What he does, essentially, is terrorism - "the systematic use of terror especially as a means of coercion ".
He systematically feeds your fears that he might quit coding RockPatch, and, while you all (at least most of you) claim to realize what he does, you still fall for his manipulation and direct your anger towards me rather than him.
Hostage-taking, blackmail, terrorism - it doesn't matter what you call it. It is an act of aggression by him, against the community, with the goal to discredit me and force me into giving up control.
So if you want the aggression to end, fight the source - not the target.
blackheartstar Wrote:It is an opinion based argument no one can be factualy right/wrong.That is true. Yet you are forgetting the surrounding actions. VK holding RockPatch hostage was clearly wrong. Vandalizing ModEnc was clearly wrong. Not obeying the terrorist is clearly right. Trying to reach consent rather than forcing my way through is clearly right.
Just because there are few facts that can be proven right or wrong does not mean there are no right or wrong positions in this discussion.
/-\G@/\/\ Wrote:Ren you shit. You have gone waaay to far with this. Move Rock Patch to a other forum please. Then this site will die becuse it aint shit without RP.Yet another one who didn't read the thread before posting...
Even if you own this site you should not act like a fucking dictator!
...or just a sock puppet for VK?
While we're on the topic of projects other than RP, and I have your attention anyway...*points at red text in sig*
RE: Rock Patch 1.10 development thread - blackheartstar - 28.04.2007
Renegade Wrote:...because as much as you all claim to despise VK for doing this, you all act exactly as he wishes: You attack me, after he stopped the patch. You all live in fear he might stop coding RockPatch and would do anything for him to continue, no matter who's right and who's wrong.I dont recall ever saying I despised or dislike CNCVK myself just that he dosent always do things the way Id have them done. (Id call you saying this right here the way you worded it a attempt at manipulation). I hope Ive never came off in a way that you felt was an attack. I have no anger or dislike towards you either. If he does stop coding oh well. It would suck but I have no fear of it as it has no real effect on my life or any of these people you say are living in fear of him quiting.
Renegade Wrote:He demands I delete stuff he doesn't like, for purely that reason, or wants to dictate how it looks like if he allows it to liveMuch like yourself. Almost exactly. Only here you are justified by the fact that you do pay for this whole show, and I do appreciate that dispite the fact all it seems we do is argue
Renegade Wrote:Riiight...because resisting his attempts at blackmail are slander and propaganda. You don't even see anymore how much he influences you, do you? And you wonder who I call obedient?First I will point towards these parables of terrorism
Then point to the use of indirect influence such as attempting to emply that we are somehow under VKs control if we dissagree with you. I then reffer to your version page that was up well before CNCVKs and contains much slander against him. Where he has said some unapproprate things to some of us it was in the forum not up on the modenc well untill his version page went up.Renegade Wrote:Don't you think if I didn't care for RockPatch, I'd have long cut this short, given VK the finger, and told him I'd rather burn in hell than to find a compromise?No becouse then you would look like the bad guy were as right now your only guilty of being abit to stern with you opinion. You want to enforce your way with out looking bad. It also why you go on into such indepth analysis of everything trying to justify yourself thus "look" good.
Renegade Wrote:As much as you might find this term too heavy at the moment: What he does, essentially, is terrorism - "the systematic use of terror especially as a means of coercion ".
He systematically feeds your fears that he might quit coding RockPatch, and, while you all (at least most of you) claim to realize what he does, you still fall for his manipulation and direct your anger towards me rather than him.
This also goes in to the example of your brand of propaganda. Just about everything here is straight propaganda.
I dont claim to realize what he does but it looks like you upset him to the point that he reacted like a child and pulled the project in a attemp to get his way with you. Your stubborn and not willing to give in to his demands. On somethings your right imo such as the aigenerals he should explain indepth why (could take some tips from you
) on others like the versioning I may disagree with his exact method but its now in his hands and should have no question as to how he wants to put it up.There is nothing here to fear or be terribly angry about
RE: Rock Patch 1.10 development thread - Renegade - 28.04.2007
blackheartstar Wrote:Much like yourself. Almost exactly. Only here you are justified by the fact that you do pay for this whole show, and I do appreciate that dispite the fact all it seems we do is argueHow am I doing almost exactly the same as he is doing? When have I ever said anything to the effect of "resume coding, or else..." in this discussion? All I'm doing is actively not complying with his orders, while he is trying to order me around. That looks like two totally different things to me.
Please enlighten me if I'm wrong, but I am honestly unable to see your point.
blackheartstar Wrote:First I will point towards these parables of terrorismThat implies that I am trying to force you on my side - did I threaten you with anything? Did I not try to reason instead, over three pages now, while all VK does is screaming "BULLSHIT" and make demands?
Again, enlighten me, if you can, but I fail to see the basis for your point.
blackheartstar Wrote:Then point to the use of indirect influence such as attempting to emply that we are somehow under VKs control if we dissagree with you.Are you saying all the people telling me to delete the page are not doing so because VK threatens to end RP?
You yourself said they were actually agreeing with me, yet, every few posts, there is one telling me to take it down.
If that is not their actual opinion, is the fact that VK wants them to say that not the only explanation why they would speak against their own opinion?
blackheartstar Wrote:I then reffer to your version page that was up well before CNCVKs and contains much slander against him. Where he has said some unapproprate things to some of us it was in the forum not up on the modenc well untill his version page went up.No. Just plain no.
If you read the still-current version, or the original one, you will see that I included some jabs at his naming system (calling it "wacky" and "meaningless", among other things) - if you check out his page instead, you'll see that he attacked me, personally, and on a much lower standard ("stupid" vs. "wacky").
My personal opinion of his naming system is not slander. That's just plain false. And the fact that my page was up first has nothing to do with that. As I noted above, he showed numerous times he was able to edit the page - if it was just the word "wacky" troubling him, he could easily have removed it without killing the entire page.
(And all of that doesn't even take into account the amount of slander he put up in pd's releases' direction - even though pd never even said anything on this topic.)
blackheartstar Wrote:No becouse then you would look like the bad guy were as right now your only guilty of being abit to stern with you opinion. You want to enforce your way with out looking bad. It also why you go on into such indepth analysis of everything trying to justify yourself thus "look" good.
...dude. VK threatened the entire community over a stupid opinion piece and vandalized one of my sites 6 times. He also threatened multiple times to do stuff himself if I didn't bow to his demands. How could I ever look bad if I banned him? In fact, I honestly believe that, after actions of this magnitude, repeated this many times, and causing so much trouble, he'd already be banned globally on any other network.
You are right, I don't want to come off as the bad guy. But not because I fear to look bad when I protect my server from a vandal, but because I'd rather not come off as the guy who killed RockPatch, for which VK is so cleverly trying to frame me.
blackheartstar Wrote:This also goes in to the example of your brand of propaganda. Just about everything here is straight propaganda.Again, I ask you: Where do I work with such methods? Where in this discussion have I threatened bans to people with dissenting opinions, or killing RockPatch if nobody agrees with me?
I have banned VK from ModEnc, yes. Because he vandalized multiple pages several times, and kept returning after he was banned. That is no unique behavior to me, and would have been handled anywhere else in just the same way. In fact, many communities would probably have banned his forum account as well, just to be sure.
So, where am I working on the same level as VK?
blackheartstar Wrote:I dont claim to realize what he does but it looks like you upset him to the point that he reacted like a child and pulled the project in a attemp to get his way with you.Yes. And the interesting question following that observation is: Does the fact the he childishly got upset over a nuisance to this degree give him the right to react the way he does?
Am I automatically the bad one, just because he is the one who got upset?
blackheartstar Wrote:Your stubborn and not willing to give in to his demands.How is it "stubborn" to not allow him to force me into doing things to my server?
If some random person came into your house and demanded you burn your furniture, would you consider yourself "stubborn" for refusing to do that?
To give you a ray of light: As implied earlier in the post, I'm currently re-writing RP:Versions. I will not delete it, and I will not take down the table, but it will include VK's versions (as it'd be stupid to not only have two version pages, but also to not have the official RockPatch Versions on RockPatch:Versions), and it will make pretty clear that the traditional version mapping is unofficial. It will also objectively mention the problems potentially arising from the version-less system, and (which bob will like) I'll update the mapping table to fit with VK's 1.10.
iow: When I'm done, there's no reason whats-o-ever for him to cry anymore. If he then still doesn't quit his childish antics, I'll consider that proof that I was right all along, and he's just looking for a cheap excuse to quit the project.
RE: Rock Patch 1.10 development thread - DCoder - 28.04.2007
Quote:The RP 1.10 is suspended for unknown time.
<snip>
until someone will delete this ModEnc page.
Quote:So if you don't like RP then don't host it, I can promise you that it could get hosted anywhere. not every one is gonna like how someone runs there network.
Quote:Move Rock Patch to a other forum please.
Quote:When I'm done, there's no reason whats-o-ever for him to cry anymore. If he then still doesn't quit his childish antics, I'll consider that proof that I was right all along, and he's just looking for a cheap excuse to quit the project.
VK's threat was not "DELETE PAGE OR YOUR NETWORK LOSES ROCKPATCH", it was "DELETE PAGE OR ROCKPATCH GOES INTO A COMA". He is not fucking interested in alternatives, he's just pulling strings and you goddamn muppets are jumping exactly the way he wants you to. It was funny at first, but now it's becoming pathetic, really.
Quote:If some random person came into your house and demanded you burn your furniture, would you consider yourself "stubborn" for refusing to do that?You have used analogies like this one to illustrate this particular point at least five times now, it didn't help. Stop wasting your time, there's clearly nothing you can do to make the puppets think for themselves.
This is just like fucking Jesus Camp, the puppets raving and drooling, ready to die for their (false) god.